Hi,
It seems to me that we are getting more and more technical in Keyshot rather than user friendly. I have modo but stopped using it because it has hundreds of parameters I need to adjust - and when I do, the results are great.
I like Keyshot because it has predefined materials etc. I don't want to waste time to create my own. My creativity is about design and art.
So rather that see constant proliferation of adjustments, I'd like to see hundreds of predefined materials and scenes - which I can then tweak to my liking if needed. Why give us a tutorial on how to create a brushed metal (which Richard did last year) instead of giving us 10 to 20 brushed metals to choose from?
I do not buy the fact than there are an infinite number of combinations of product, lighting and materials etc. and that Keyshot cannot cover it all. Pareto principle states that 20 percent of causes create 80 percent of results so if Keyshot gave us a good selection of woods (which now is pathetic), glass, metals, room scenes, studio scenes, outdoor scenes - that would cover at least 80 or maybe 90 percent of cases.
So here is my five cents - if Keyshot becomes like modo, what's the point? Let's have tons of predefined stuff and an 80/20 approach to availabe adjustments. For "true believers" there could be an "ultra advanced" tab which would let them make adjustments to their hearts content. But let's keep it simple and user friendly for creative and busy people. Thanks.
Great points.
We just happen to have been pondering very similar questions recently. We agree. Our focus should be on being easy and efficient.
We are planning on reworking our Library materials for KeyShot 7, so that they are higher quality (e.g. avoiding seams), have better size handling and are more physically accurate (without flooding you with parameters). We will be introducing a range of new metal materials, that are as accurate as they get and yet are very light on parameters.
Thanks again for the heads-up.
Dries
Quote from: bdesign on February 16, 2017, 01:57:08 PM
Hmm. Are you implying that users who actually enjoy creating materials, who do not find it a "waste of time", and have the skills to do so, are somehow not creative?
Hi Eric,
I do not think that is implied.
I read it as: Remember where you come from. Our core selling point (above all else) is still ease of use.
Dries
Yes, I was a bit hasty with that reply, and have removed it. My apologies to G2Art.
Eric
Personally I think the underlying materials/procedurals that come with KS are just as easy now as when I first started using KeyShot with version 3. The major difference comes with v6 and the MatGraph system. It's opened the doors to lots of creative minds that are finding some outstanding solutions to problems that have been wanting to be addressed for a while.
I can understand your wish for a gazillion preset materials, but again that would equal larger downloads for updates etc and an overloaded library that would take an age to build when loading KS. You really can create so much from the basics provided, and it's not until you try pushing those basics that you start to run into sliders and settings, but for the most part, roughness and colours are pretty much all you need to change to get great results.
I think that MatGraph is great even if I can't figure what all the nodes do, and that it is still pretty easy to use, so I think KeyShot is still as user friendly in those areas of basic materials and how to assign them as it ever was.
Martin
Quote from: G2Art on February 16, 2017, 01:26:41 PM
So rather that see constant proliferation of adjustments, I'd like to see hundreds of predefined materials and scenes - which I can then tweak to my liking if needed. Why give us a tutorial on how to create a brushed metal (which Richard did last year) instead of giving us 10 to 20 brushed metals to choose from?
First of all. Thanks for sharing your honest opinion. It's good to be constantly reminded about what KeyShot's users find most important. That said, to your first point here... have you used the KeyShot Cloud Library? There, you can find (as of now) 1,678 materials, 152 environments, 339 backplates and 113 textures. These are free to use and only a couple clicks away, and keeps your default library small/fast to load.
Quote from: G2Art on February 16, 2017, 01:26:41 PM
I do not buy the fact than there are an infinite number of combinations of product, lighting and materials etc. and that Keyshot cannot cover it all. Pareto principle states that 20 percent of causes create 80 percent of results so if Keyshot gave us a good selection of woods (which now is pathetic), glass, metals, room scenes, studio scenes, outdoor scenes - that would cover at least 80 or maybe 90 percent of cases.
Whether or not you "buy the fact" that there are an infinite number of combinations of product, lighting and materials... undermines that it is indeed a fact. It only reinforces your point that if we focus on the most common requests, we can give our users exactly what they want 80% of the time. There are lots of great improvements for our next release that will do exactly this. I think you'll be happy with those. As for that remaining 20% of the time... we have some advanced features such as the Material Graph.
So, hang tight and give KeyShot 7 a try when it's released and be sure to let us know what you think about it!
One of the greatest software moves was quietly implemented and ignored by most developers was when DVD Studio Pro would first open on a machine and you could select "Beginner, Intermediate or Advanced" GUI modes. It was brilliant, and without guessing at the work that went into it, probably fairly simple as it was just a GUI layout preset solution.
There are times when I want to see every single option, and some times I don't. Look to Maxon's Cinema 4D (which I am a huge fan of) it has one of the most customizable interfaces (along with shortcuts) that I've seen. There are vast libraries of user interface layouts that people create and share.
But that all depends on the internal framework of how the GUI is built I'd guess. But being able to save and quickly recall layouts would be a huge plus in my opinion.
matt
Quote from: mattjgerard on February 17, 2017, 01:04:06 PM
...
But being able to save and quickly recall layouts would be a huge plus in my opinion.
matt
Enter KeyShot 7. ;)
KeyShot 7 will have a much more customizable UI with Workspaces (presets of UI arrangements geared for specific users or tasks), custom hotkeys (all of them!), customizable Ribbon etc.
Dries
I think Keyshot should keep offering and improving both easy-to-use materials and advanced customization options, so the user can choose which approach he prefers.
I love the fast results that can be achieved using Keyshot, but I also love to customize materials using the Material Graph, such as layering textures and adding ambient occlusion. I'm used to working with nodes in Blender's Cycles, and wouldn't want to miss that fine level of control.
I'm eagerly looking forward to Keyshot 7, which I hope will also offer view navigation customization options, as that will make the transition between other tools and Keyshot much smoother.
Thanks!
Thanks everyone. Great replies. I think I did not express myself very well regarding creativity as clearly there are different kinds and all valid. Mine happens to be mostly in the area of form and function - and I use Keyshot to present my ideas in an attractive way. Essentially product shots... nothing super fancy but I still want to make them believable and interesting. I'm looking forward to the new improvements and I agree that having two tracks - one with predefined materials and scenes and the other with a lot options to customize them should make everyone happy. Thanks again.
Just keep in mind though, we don't want it to be tooooooo easy, you know, job security and all that ;D
QuoteJust keep in mind though, we don't want it to be tooooooo easy, you know, job security and all that
So true! A close friend was considered one of the top book designers back in the early 1970's, and was Art Director for a major publisher. He worked in pencil and ink, rubylith, paste ups and Velox prints. Back from a vacation, he was headed to his office when he walked past his secretary, who was hard at work on her computer. He stopped to say hi, and noticed she was designing a book on what I guess was the first book design program. Name escapes me. Anyway, he went into his office, thought about things for a bit, then went to the boss and quit! In his mind, when a secretary (this was before sexism was a term) designed books, his ten years as an art and design expert was of no meaning anymore.
Slipping a bit off-topic, but maybe not. I was an early adopter of KeyShot, back in 2008 when it was marketed by another firm. The evolution from KeyShot 1 to KeyShot 6 (and soon 7) is nothing short of amazing! Rendering now accounts for about 35% of my sales. Most of my work is simple "clean" rendering of products (my own designs or others) used mainly for promotion, advertising and the like. Nothing fancy or artistically stunning. Very journeyman like and efficient, created to meet my clients needs. Some, of course, are rather more elaborate. So I really appreciate the ease and speed of KeyShooting. But it's also nice to know that I can get as deep into the toolbox as I want, or the project warrants. I'm still getting my head around Matgraph, but it is so cool!
But... I now specifically exclude KeyShot packages or .bip files from the deliverables. The deliverables include only the final renderings, as approved by the client from small thumbnail sized images. I zip up and ship the finals upon approval and payment. Those of you who work with ad agencies and the like understand this policy!
My reasoning is simple. KeyShot is a tool, used to create the final product. When I had a large machine shop, the deliverable was the "part", but did not include the machines used to create that part. A KeyShot can be simple or complex, but nevertheless requires expertise, experience, training and horsepower to be successful as a profit center. It can be transferred to other KeyShooters should the client want to walk away, but they need to bring their own vision to it, and not trash yours. IMO, the client retained me as an artist to bring my assets to the table, and I retain those inherent artistic rights. I retain a backup off-line and on a CD in my fireproof safe for a period of two years. For original designs (medical and other), I create a SolidWorks Pack-and-Go for the client as part of the deliverables. No argument here.
So I know that Luxion will continue to offer the absolute best engine available, with simplicity for the majority of users yet depth for those who need it, which is why KeyShot is being so widely accepted by the CG community and casual user alike.
Just my opinions...
Bill G
This is a very interesting thread! Great points
Personally, I love the expansion of the features and robustness of Keyshot, but I agree, the important point is how 'entry-level' Keyshot is for newbies.
'Keyshot is a Gateway Drug.'
At least it has been for me in regards to 3D. I come from a graphic design/photography background, and Keyshot is my first experience, for anything 3D related, and ever since I got into it, I've now been exploring other parts of the 3D world, including how to model, etc. If I didn't have Keyshot, I would have never been able to get into 3D at all, it's such an intimidating field, and a VAST one at that. I know many of us come from different backgrounds, and Keyshot has such a strong community because of it!
...That being said, the suggestion to be able to customize the "complexity" at the startup is a cool idea!
Either way, I always want more! Give me more more more! =)
QuoteEither way, I always want more! Give me more more more! =)
More cores!!! I was going to get a RenderPro from BOXX, to sit on top of my BOXX 8920, but instead it's more cost effective to offload large jobs to a render farm like 3DOTP, who are tops.
I agree, this is a most interesting thread! I was only a SolidWorks guy until KeyShot came along and whet my appetite for MORE! I have MODO, but never really got started, but I'm now working hard to learn Zbrush, which is like the missing link in my workflow. Hey, at 70 I've got to keep alive!
I do have to chuckle... I've been in business since 1973 (actually earlier, but that's a different story), and built the prototype for the Bomar Brain, the world's first "pocket calculator", if you had a large and deep pocket! But the kicker is that he designed it on a slide rule! Times they are changing!
Bill G
Great feedback, guys!
And Bill, you are insane... in a good way. :)
Dries
Quote from: dmerziii on February 22, 2017, 12:51:52 PM
I come from a graphic design/photography background, and Keyshot is my first experience,
Oh you poor poor sap, you never got to experience the joy of spending hours and hours and days of renders trying to figure out why your GI was flickering, figuring out what the heck normals were when only engineers knew (and weren't telling anyone!) and why they would make the geo freak out your textures and all of the other hair pulling sessions trying to figure out how to make all this stuff work.
You are very fortunate to have missed all that, now we all live in a drag n drop world, where I hope that software designers still give us the ability to poke deep into the apps they are creating to tweak and tweak to our hearts content.
Quotenow we all live in a drag n drop world
Well, if you get too bored playing with KeyShot, there's always the Plug-and-Play fallback- I think they call it sex! And you can poke as deep as you want!
Bill G
;D I'm very lucky indeed, what a time to be alive!
But it is wonderful to think about how far the technology and the software has come, I wonder what we would be the "flickering GI" issue of today?
I'm thinking UV Mapping might be a contender. 5 years from now, the new guys will wonder what all the fuss was about; 'you just hit the button, man!' Presto, the model is unwrapped perfectly, the UVs are ready to go. (5 years might be a wild overestimation actually).
Quote from: dmerziii on February 23, 2017, 01:13:09 PM
;D I'm very lucky indeed, what a time to be alive!
But it is wonderful to think about how far the technology and the software has come, I wonder what we would be the "flickering GI" issue of today?
I'm thinking UV Mapping might be a contender. 5 years from now, the new guys will wonder what all the fuss was about; 'you just hit the button, man!' Presto, the model is unwrapped perfectly, the UVs are ready to go. (5 years might be a wild overestimation actually).
Future person A: "Can you believe people used to do UV unwrapping to paint in 2D?"
Future person B: "So they actually had to push a button that would cut a model into pieces and somehow puzzle them together on a plane? To paint pixels? That's insane!"
Future person A: "I know, right? Thank god we have voxel painting now."
Future person B: "Yeah."
Dries
Years ago, just out of college in the mid 1960's (they say "if you can remember the 1960's, you weren't there") I worked in Hollywood as lighting designer for the great sci-fi writer Ray Bradbury's production of three one-act plays. A crazy genius, to be sure, a great man, and a good friend!
One was called "The Veldt", a mind-blowing short story. But the "veldt" was actually what we might call today "immersive VR" or something similar. The bottom line is, we may not be far off from not needing "product" as a physical object- we simply enjoy the experience of it. Far fetched? Not really!
But this sucks for us product designers! But then, without the product, where does the render come from?
Bill G
Quote from: Speedster on February 23, 2017, 01:56:46 PM
. . . One was called "The Veldt", a mind-blowing short story. . . .
Ray Bradbury is one of my favorite SciFi writers. "A Sound of Thunder" and "The Long Rain" are a couple of his stories that were also put on film. I remember seeing "The Veldt" on TV. The ending is certainly a "Whoa" moment.