Hello
I was wondering if you could render out just the bumpmap to a layer? Purpose would be a label on a bottle with condensation. So if you didn't have the artwork but wanted to put it in between the can rendering and the bumpmap of the water droplets once the artwork was provided. Basically have some nice blank can renderings waiting for new art to drop in. Can this be done?
Can you render out the bumpmap separate to use in photoshop.
Thanks
36 views and nobody can tell me if you can render just a texture/bump map?
I am not sure if I understood your question right.
You want the droplets on a separate layer, so you can put a layer in Photoshop below it? And how should Photoshop calculate the refraction?
I would apply a dummy texture as a psd on the can surface and the droplets on top (preferring KeyShot 8 with nested dielectric and displacement). Then if the artwork is done in the psd I would update the KeyShot scene and render it out.
Hope that guide you to a good workflow.
Cheers
Marco
Sorry why would you create a dummy texture?
Basically I just want to know if you can render out just the texture or bump map from any object. My example would be a water normal map on a can or bottle. I want to render only the detail of the water droplets separate. Like what you can do with putting objects on different render layers. Would you make a duplicate of the can and hide it or something? I assume this can't be done due to the object the texture is rendered on is missing...
Quote from: jamesp on November 06, 2018, 12:30:32 PM
Basically I just want to know if you can render out just the texture or bump map from any object.
You can not.
The bump map is effectively just a way to change the normals. You can render a normal pass, but I doubt this will give you what you are looking for?
Can you provide some images of what you are trying to achieve?
I have no idea what your desired output would be.
Dries
Not sure how to explain this anymore.
Here is a picture of a can with condensation. This is photography with water spritz on.
I want to be able to render out in layers just the can and then just the water. so I can multiple a lable layer in photoshop. we don't have artwork to use to render in keyshot. so this would be option b to put it in post.
i assume the guy that said no is probably right. how would you render a texture if you turned off the material it was on. unless the next version of keyshot would let you render details or attributes of a material. IE just the texture/bump map...
I am not sure if I can find a solution that you're looking for.
But I am sure that this can is definitely a render and not shoot as a photo!
If you use a model with the water drops as geometry it could be useful to render them separated against a flat 50% grey color. That can be used to blend the water drops over the artwork in Photoshop. But please explain me how do you want to create the artwork in Photoshop looking realistic wrapped around a can without using the model?
This is an interesting journey?!
Cheers
Marco
Quote from: MWo on November 07, 2018, 10:53:16 PM
I am not sure if I can find a solution that you're looking for.
But I am sure that this can is definitely a render and not shoot as a photo!
:o Curious, what lead you to this conclusion, that this is definitely a render and not a photo? It is very convincing to me, though I am not positive either way, and I work on alum cans all day for AB InBev. What strikes me as an odd detail are the slight dark spots on the drops in the upper middle (I thought might be misalignment of the surface of the drops and the can, but also, could be refraction).
The most convincing details for me are the micro drops inside of the drops found all over the can, this is an incredible detail to achieve.
Sorry OP, didn't mean to hijack your post, I'm just so curious about Marco's comment!
But as someone who works with condensation on cans every single day, you're going to have a hard time creating a convincing image in photoshop with artwork only in post.
The artwork would refraction through each waterdrop, in reality, this slight distortion would be missing if you did this in post. (without some magic trickery which I am unaware of).
If you're not going for photorealism, sure, I'm guessing it could be done in post. But...if you have the can geometry, lighting, camera, and drops already in keyshot, it'd be pretty easy to map the artwork on the can and hit render, no?
If anyone would know it would be this guy ^^^^^. Sounds like there is some details to the situation that might complicate things, mabe turnaround time, etc. Refraction would be the problem. If you can UV map the can, it would be so simple to just drop in the new label and render it out. Not sure why that's not an option.
Quote from: DMerz III on November 08, 2018, 06:02:46 AM
Quote from: MWo on November 07, 2018, 10:53:16 PM
I am not sure if I can find a solution that you're looking for.
But I am sure that this can is definitely a render and not shoot as a photo!
:o Curious, what lead you to this conclusion, that this is definitely a render and not a photo? It is very convincing to me, though I am not positive either way, and I work on alum cans all day for AB InBev. What strikes me as an odd detail are the slight dark spots on the drops in the upper middle (I thought might be misalignment of the surface of the drops and the can, but also, could be refraction).
The most convincing details for me are the micro drops inside of the drops found all over the can, this is an incredible detail to achieve.
Sorry OP, didn't mean to hijack your post, I'm just so curious about Marco's comment!
But as someone who works with condensation on cans every single day, you're going to have a hard time creating a convincing image in photoshop with artwork only in post.
The artwork would refraction through each waterdrop, in reality, this slight distortion would be missing if you did this in post. (without some magic trickery which I am unaware of).
If you're not going for photorealism, sure, I'm guessing it could be done in post. But...if you have the can geometry, lighting, camera, and drops already in keyshot, it'd be pretty easy to map the artwork on the can and hit render, no?
This can is not a render. Sorry I can't remember if I mentioned it. I just put the picture up because people didn't understand what I wanted to do. We don't have the artwork yet so we can't render full cans with labels. Hence why I want a layered render to put the artwork in later.
DMerz III has a keen eye for this. I'm sure there is hairs in this photo but the black dots are the camera lens reflecting in the water drops. There was a full black streak on the can I photoshopped out. We are at the point where yes the realism of the rendering due to not having the artwork is something we will have to live with. Referring to the note about how the artwork distorts with the water etc. I've already done so much post photoshop work but wanted to set up a smart layer for mapping in the artwork that would be multiples on the can. Apparently here that is our process. I'm looking into rendering options for down the road.
So this is why I asked about rendering textures. So I knew if the water was geometry it could be done. That again is something we can't really achieve at this point...
Thanks all
1) Render the can without water drops
2) Turn on the water drops (on its own object or a label of the can)
3) Make can material a clear glass with refractive index at 1 (should make can totally transparent
4) Use gradient mask in opacity node of the water drops, map so that the back side of the drops are masked out. This will depend highly on not changing camera angle, as the gradient mask will have to move with the camera to keep the back of the can water drops fully transparent. There might be a "camera mapping" option on the mask mapping options
5) Make sure the lighting has enough kick on the side of the water drops to give an edge to them.
6) In photoshop follow one of the many excellent tutorials on displacement mapping, using the water drops greyscale layer as the source. It would take some amount of experimenting, but should be able to get something that would work.
I think what we are missing here is the restrictions that you might be under. There are times when circumstances don't allow us to do things the "right" way, or the way we would prefer them. Its then when we have to come up with alternative options that will get us as close as we can, and while not perfect, will be enough for the job to get done to the satisfaction of the client. This doesn't mean that we would stop looking for a better solution, but when deadlines start to creep, its hard to get away from that "good enough for now" scenario. Some good ideas on this thread, hope you find something that works.
One of these days, I will do a video tutorial series on my method for condensation on a can. It isn't nearly as good as that photograph you posted, but for a marketing type of image, I think we do pretty darn good for the time and tools we use.
Quote from: DMerz III on November 08, 2018, 01:57:05 PM
One of these days, I will do a video tutorial series on my method for condensation on a can. It isn't nearly as good as that photograph you posted, but for a marketing type of image, I think we do pretty darn good for the time and tools we use.
Count me in as someone who'd be interested in seeing that!
Quote from: DMerz III on November 08, 2018, 01:57:05 PM
One of these days, I will do a video tutorial series on my method for condensation on a can. It isn't nearly as good as that photograph you posted, but for a marketing type of image, I think we do pretty darn good for the time and tools we use.
I'd like to see such technique.
So please give us a hint if the tutorial is ready to see.
Thank you, David!
I am sorry about my previous post. I didn't want to annoy anyone.
The water drops or better the space between the drops looks too regular, so I guessed it was a render.
Marco
This is not answering your specific question, but is a suggestion for an alternate method of adding the labels in post. While not perfectly, physically correct, I think it is fairly convincing, especially to the "untrained eye". It is quite easy, especially if you will be rendering straight on, near-orthographic camera views such as in your photo reference. Try this: get your condensation looking nice on a blank can, and render. Open the render in Photoshop and add your labels on top of the can, then set the blend mode to Overlay. To get different looks for the label, you can duplicate the label layer and place it below the original Overlay layer, changing the opacity and experimenting with other blend modes (for instance, placing a 30% opacity duplicate below the original and setting the blend mode to Color Burn will give the label a more "metallic" look). As a final subtle detail, you can use Filter > Distort > Displace on the labels, using one of the RGB channels of your normal map as the displacement map (I used the green channel with Horizontal and Vertical Scale values at 1). The example renders below are:
1. Blank can with condensation
2. Can with labels added in PS, blend mode = Overlay
3. Can with labels added in PS, blend mode = Overlay / 30% opacity duplicate below, blend mode = Color Burn
4. Can with labels added in PS, blend mode = Overlay / 30% opacity duplicate below, blend mode = Color Burn, both layers displaced with the normal map green channel, with Horizontal and Vertical Scale values at 1
If rendering camera angles with more perspective, it will take some tweaking in PS to get the labels to match the perspective, but can be done using Edit > Transform > Distort and Edit > Transform > Perspective. For a comparison to this same can/condensation with the labels rendered directly in KeyShot, see here: https://www.keyshot.com/forum/index.php?topic=22691.new#new . (The KeyShot icon label in this render is a metal material with a lower roughness value than the can.)
Cheers,
Eric
Pretty epic demo there, Eric. The refraction through the water droplets is pretty convincing.
Quote from: mattjgerard on November 12, 2018, 06:23:22 AM
Pretty epic demo there, Eric. The refraction through the water droplets is pretty convincing.
Thanks, Matt. Glad you think so :)
Cheers,
Eric
@jamesp
Hi James,
Hope I understood your request properly.
If you have the base geometry with big ocean waves, like in the image "1.png" ...
and you need to extract a normal pass from it - image "2.png" ...
... then add an additional bump on it - image "3.png" ...
... and like to have the bump information on the normal pass - image "4.png"...
... in this case you need to render 2 times:
- 1x in Product mode to get the normal path from the base geometry
- 1x in Interior mode to get the bumps on the normal path
For the second render you can go with very low samples (8-16), don't go less if you need good Anti Aliasing.
Cheers,
Eugen
So, the refraction was faked by using the green channel of the normal map in photoshop? How exactly was the normal map layer interacting with the others to make it look refracted or distorted?
Hopefully the question I'm asking makes sense. I assumed this was possible but hadn't tried it before. Interested to hear if you can share a touch more detail. Let me know if I missed it in your description.
Thanks,
Quote from: bdesign on November 12, 2018, 11:02:36 AM
Quote from: mattjgerard on November 12, 2018, 06:23:22 AM
Pretty epic demo there, Eric. The refraction through the water droplets is pretty convincing.
Thanks, Matt. Glad you think so :)
Cheers,
Eric
Kudos Eric!
You're a CGI ninja!
Cheers
Marco
Quote from: MWo on November 13, 2018, 10:09:20 AM
Kudos Eric!
You're a CGI ninja!
Cheers
Marco
Thank you kindly, Marco! Danke schön :)
Cheers,
Eric
Quote from: Will Gibbons on November 13, 2018, 09:40:23 AM
So, the refraction was faked by using the green channel of the normal map in photoshop? How exactly was the normal map layer interacting with the others to make it look refracted or distorted?
Hopefully the question I'm asking makes sense. I assumed this was possible but hadn't tried it before. Interested to hear if you can share a touch more detail. Let me know if I missed it in your description.
Thanks,
Yes. The subtle distortion of the labels was done by first rendering the normal map of the can, in Preview Bump mode, then opening in Photoshop and using Split Channels to obtain the RGB and Transparency channels as separate files. I then saved the resulting green channel document as as PSD file to be used as the displacement map on the labels, using Filter > Distort > Displace. You can experiment with different Horizontal and Vertical Scale values, and even run the Displace filter with more than one of the RGB channels, to get more pronounced and/or varied distortions. In the example images below, I've left the label in Normal blend mode to better see the effect of the displace filter.
1. Normal map rendered in Preview Bump mode
2. Green channel used with displace filter
3. Default label on can
4. Displaced label on can
Cheers,
Eric
Man, you're a Photoshop wizard. You spend lots of time in it I assume?
Hi
here a test in keyshot 8 (geometry node) without using photoshop
Quote from: Will Gibbons on November 16, 2018, 10:55:04 AM
Man, you're a Photoshop wizard. You spend lots of time in it I assume?
Thanks, Will. I wouldn't say "lots", but I spend a fair amount of time in PS :)
Cheers,
Eric
Quote from: Finema on November 16, 2018, 11:59:37 PM
Hi
here a test in keyshot 8 (geometry node) without using photoshop
Nice, Philippe!
Cheers,
Eric
Thanks Eric ;)
Top job Eric!
What I am missing is the answer to the first post to know that this solution is the right way. Hope it will come with a big thank you Eric some day.
Kudos and Cheers!
Marco
Quote from: MWo on November 22, 2018, 05:28:37 AM
Top job Eric!
What I am missing is the answer to the first post to know that this solution is the right way. Hope it will come with a big thank you Eric some day.
Kudos and Cheers!
Marco
Thank you, Marco! Danke Schön!
Cheers,
Eric