Hello there is already first information about Keyshot 9?
There is some information regarding excellent GPU support (NVidia RTX cards, GeForce RTX 2080 being up to 7 times faster than a AMD 2990WX), a new denoising feature, an impressive cloth material generator and some other new stuff.
I'm shure we will get a newsletter with new information soon.
This should be quite impressive.....could you post some more details, please ?
Regards
E.
Last week was the KeyShot World 2019 in Germany and it was amazing.
Some features I remember from the presentation:
- Advanced Cloth material
- GPU Rendering (needs RTX cards)
- AI-Denoiser
- UV Wrapper in KeyShot
- Improved "rounded edges"
And...
!!! ... DRUM ROLL ... !!!
Animation curves!!!!! :o
Quote from: SebastianG on July 09, 2019, 02:43:27 AM
Last week was the KeyShot World 2019 in Germany and it was amazing.
Some features I remember from the presentation:
- Advanced Cloth material
- GPU Rendering (needs RTX cards)
- AI-Denoiser
- UV Wrapper in KeyShot
- Improved "rounded edges"
Just a note on GPU...
An RTX card is not required for GPU Mode. Any card from the Maxwell generation (e.g. GTX 980) or newer will work.
However, the rendering will be sped up significantly by having an RTX card, since our implementation can leverage the RT cores present on those cards.
Dries
THIS IS EPIC! I just started a thread regarding AI denoising. UV wrapping is going to be a game changer as well!!
Is the GPU acceleration limited to Nvidia cards? No sign of AMD/Metal for Mac users?
Hopefully the AI denoising isn't GPU bound.
Hello? Anybody know anything about this?
I hope my memory is correct.
In the presentation they said that the denoiser is faster with a GPU, but it also works with a CPU (2.5 seconds?).
Okay, apparently KS9 is Nvidia/CUDA only. Which is hugely disappointing for everyone not on that GPU ecosystem. Anyone who wants Metal support for macOS should let Luxion know,
Quote from: Weezer on July 25, 2019, 01:42:40 AM
Okay, apparently KS9 is Nvidia/CUDA only. Which is hugely disappointing for everyone not on that GPU ecosystem. Anyone who wants Metal support for macOS should let Luxion know,
Maybe it is better to ask Apple for NVIDIA support instead? 8)
"Maybe it is better to ask Apple for NVIDIA support instead? 8) "
Ha, yeah, good luck with that! I know you are joking, but it really is a serious issue. NVIDIA is really breaking some new trails in terms of GPU's, and apple really needs to get over themselves. I mean, Steve's gone, time to do what is good for the customer, not hold petty grudges. Jarred Land (RED Cinema) , one of the biggest advocates and lover of the Mac ecosystem literally begged apple at the last developers conference to open up NVIDIA support on the Mac. He offered to do it for them, and hand them the code for free. Something Is odd at apple, and I just can't figure it out, but is a reason that I will probably not be updating my 2015 macbook pro with a new one.
Quote from: mattjgerard on July 25, 2019, 06:02:08 AM
"Maybe it is better to ask Apple for NVIDIA support instead? 8) "
Actually not :) Matt
I believe, that it's much harder for Luxion (and their small dev team) to cut their capacities for (let me guess) 5% more market share on Apple Pro users, than it would be for Apple to support NVIDIA and finally entry the pro users market. OpenCL and CUDA have different APIs - IMO a very hard task to implement and keep the maintenance running for both systems. For what?
You nailed it - somethin is odd at apple. ;D
P.S.:
@Matt
I was sitting on my 2015 MB, waiting for some hot gear from Apple with NVIDIA support. Year for year, presentation for presentation my love to this company cooled massively down. Meanwhile I've bought two Windows systems (56x & 64x threads), each for a price where the new Mac Pro (8x threads) just starts. Now it's time for a new notebook - still no Pro solutions from Apple in their store. The Razor Blade 15 RTX 2080 with all the ports (no adapters ;D) and power looks like something I could fall in love with ;)
Man, I could have written that. Same story. Grew up on macs, loved the OS, really liked the integration with the hardware, but I fear that the pendulum has swung too far. When I was working 10-12 hours days video editing and compositing in AE working on my last version of the cheesegrater mac was glorious. It was still speedy, but now to get something at that level with current hardware I'm guessing with the new modular macpro will be unreasonably expensive. I did purchase and build a windows machine and bought a windows laptop in the meantime. I still use my 15" Mbp for personal use, but that will most likely be the last mac laptop that I buy. Which to me is just sad. With each iteration there is less and less stuff that you can do with them, and the price to performance ratio is getting stupid.
Anyway, png frame stack for alpha videos until Luxion includes the recently released apple ProRes codecs for windows. ProRes4444+ is a really nice looking codec.
Hm, I don't see a necessity for a ProRes in KS. Working with single frames is much more reliable (at least for me). If something goes wrong, you can just render new single frames. I would rather like to see an implementation of Multilayer OpenEXR for having all the passes in one file. This format is Open Source and well documented.
Quote from: camomiles on July 26, 2019, 12:44:39 AM
Hm, I don't see a necessity for a ProRes in KS. Working with single frames is much more reliable (at least for me). If something goes wrong, you can just render new single frames. I would rather like to see an implementation of Multilayer OpenEXR for having all the passes in one file. This format is Open Source and well documented.
There still are people that want to render full on videos directly from KS. I'm not one of them, and I know you and I are big proponents of NOT rendering video files (fistbump) but if one wanted to, ProRes would be the way to go. Its just a codec that would have to be implemented, so would be light work on Ks's side. I worked with ProRes since day one of Final Cut and apple, and its a great production codec.
I did a bunch of reading about EXR files a while back when I was getting into more compositing, and then I stopped doing ae work. Does After Effects handle mulitlayer exr files? I know houdini and I think Resolve can. Its a cool concept about having all the passes in one file and extracting them through nodes.
It works fine with the Extractor Plug-In in AE. Natron, Nuke, Resolve, Fusion and Blender do it naively.
But now we are completely off topic :)
Moving post to general discussion.
Can anyone tell me if my Quadro M4000 is tall enough to go on this ride?
And (very roughly, won't hold you to it, promise) how much extra oomph would it deliver over my current CPU-only setup (Intel i7-6700 running at 3.4GHz)?
My dual RTX 2080ti 11gb video cards are waiting for GPU button on the ribbon. Is there any idea when Keyshot 9 is being released.
Quote from: weatherman on August 11, 2019, 06:52:18 AM
Is there any idea when Keyshot 9 is being released.
This Autumn
Soooo, anyone else running a beta copy of KS9, and your thoughts???
We currently don't have the "best" NVIDIA card yet (running a Quadro P5000 v419.17), but have one coming for a test rally drive.
Presently going through a whole routine test battery of renders to see how time vs quality suss out.
But honestly, imho the single most prickly issue I have had with KS is "real-time-rendering", even with a relative power house machine of 26 core, visualization of complex AND large assemblies (50m triangles) with multiple clear optical lenses (for the transportation lighting industry) has at best hindered my workflow and plagued my quality control. It has been virtually impossible to clearly see in "real-time" what the rendered results could bring.
That said, GPU already appears to be offering unprecedented benefits toward this resolve. We are so very hopeful (even if rendering still needs to be done in the context of a "Network" paradigm). Thank you KS developers. It's a new dawn, it's a new day...
Not sure what I'm going to get with GPU vs CPU rendering in that we noted one can no longer utilize the rendering option: Custom Control. GPU calls for either Max Samples or Max Time. The later, though I realize many folks like it in their particular workflow, does not appear useful to me. We have to have the highest res samples.
GPU in Real-Time-Render also doesn't appear to be faithfully displaying Global Illumination effects in reflections through multiple refracting lens materials. Hmmm.
Quote from: DetroitVinylRob on August 14, 2019, 10:54:46 AM
Soooo, anyone else running a beta copy of KS9, and your thoughts???
Rob, how did you get the beta? I thought I was in the loop as to when they started testing, but I guess not. I have a machine with a Quadro M4000 that I'm interested in testing out.
Quote from: Eric Summers on August 14, 2019, 12:28:14 PM
Quote from: DetroitVinylRob on August 14, 2019, 10:54:46 AM
Soooo, anyone else running a beta copy of KS9, and your thoughts???
Rob, how did you get the beta? I thought I was in the loop as to when they started testing, but I guess not. I have a machine with a Quadro M4000 that I'm interested in testing out.
Email beta@luxion.com, that's what I did. I only have a gtx980, so mine is BARELY supported, and in fact renders slower than the CPU. And I'll be getting a new workstation soon that will take my fps from 145 to over 400, so not sure I'll be dabbling with GPU rendering anytime soon.
Quote from: mattjgerard on August 14, 2019, 01:32:35 PM
Quote from: Eric Summers on August 14, 2019, 12:28:14 PM
Quote from: DetroitVinylRob on August 14, 2019, 10:54:46 AM
Soooo, anyone else running a beta copy of KS9, and your thoughts???
Rob, how did you get the beta? I thought I was in the loop as to when they started testing, but I guess not. I have a machine with a Quadro M4000 that I'm interested in testing out.
Email beta@luxion.com, that's what I did. I only have a gtx980, so mine is BARELY supported, and in fact renders slower than the CPU. And I'll be getting a new workstation soon that will take my fps from 145 to over 400, so not sure I'll be dabbling with GPU rendering anytime soon.
Thanks Matt! :)
Quote from: Eric Summers on August 14, 2019, 12:28:14 PM
Quote from: DetroitVinylRob on August 14, 2019, 10:54:46 AM
Soooo, anyone else running a beta copy of KS9, and your thoughts???
Rob, how did you get the beta? I thought I was in the loop as to when they started testing, but I guess not. I have a machine with a Quadro M4000 that I'm interested in testing out.
Hi Eric. Do you have good reason to think an M4000 will handle KS9? That's what I have in my machine but I wasn't sure if it was too old (pre-RTX).
Quote from: mattjgerard on August 14, 2019, 01:32:35 PM
Quote from: Eric Summers on August 14, 2019, 12:28:14 PM
Quote from: DetroitVinylRob on August 14, 2019, 10:54:46 AM
Soooo, anyone else running a beta copy of KS9, and your thoughts???
Rob, how did you get the beta? I thought I was in the loop as to when they started testing, but I guess not. I have a machine with a Quadro M4000 that I'm interested in testing out.
Email beta@luxion.com, that's what I did. I only have a gtx980, so mine is BARELY supported, and in fact renders slower than the CPU. And I'll be getting a new workstation soon that will take my fps from 145 to over 400, so not sure I'll be dabbling with GPU rendering anytime soon.
Sorry to hear that you may not be getting into GPU anytime soon, I always appreciate your knowledge base and support to the community.
Quote from: NormanHadley on August 15, 2019, 04:06:24 AM
Hi Eric. Do you have good reason to think an M4000 will handle KS9? That's what I have in my machine but I wasn't sure if it was too old (pre-RTX).
it should work, it just won't be able to take advantage of the newer gidgets and widgets of the newer cards. My gtx980 -which honestly is a 5 yer old card which is nearly dead with feeding tube by today's performance standards- will load scenes and render, but much slower than 24 threads of 5 year old dual 6 core xeons.
Quote from: NormanHadley on August 15, 2019, 04:06:24 AM
Hi Eric. Do you have good reason to think an M4000 will handle KS9? That's what I have in my machine but I wasn't sure if it was too old (pre-RTX).
Like Matt said, it'll work but I know I don't have RT cores and all of the new fancy stuff. Hopefully I'll be able to report back on how it goes by next week. That said, I sure wouldn't mind having an RTX 8000 (or two ;D )
Thanks, Matt & Eric
Apparently Windows 19.03.0 is a needed part of the puzzle... Global Illumination still not showing on KS9 beta, install on Monday, see if that offers some progress.
Now running latest Quadro driver release vR430 U5 (431.70) WHQL, Release Date: 2019.7.29 for Windows 10 64-bit. That's not the answer...
I googled batch rendering for the other gpu renders and none of them have batch rendering when using the gpu. Will keyshot have batch rendering on the gpu side? I know for sure octane render does not have it because people are still asking for it in the forums.
Might be because I'm a designer, but I'm mostly excited for details on this new advanced fabric material. Any info anywhere on that yet? This thread is the only spot I can find reference to it after a brief Google
Okay, between the blog discussing Keyshot9 and a comment here about compatible cards, I am a little confused about which cards will work with KS9 GPU rendering. It sounds like any Nvidia card built on Maxwell or newer can run the GPU rendering, but only the cards with RTX cores can take advantage of the Real time raytracing and the AI denoising. So my main question is, can those of us that have cards like a Quadro P1000 still see some benefit or improved performance using the GPU rendering option or should we stick with the CPU rendering?
Also, is there any information on how GPU rendering is going to work with the network rendering product?
Thanks.
Hmm.
I love keyshot. I am big fun and supporter but ...
It is ok GPU support and denoiser upgrade for 1000 dollars?
Only it is good that you dont need network render farm. You will buy 10 external GPU and put 2 GPU inside youe case and its done!
Ok i will see next news .... And keyshot will have upgrade on 8.3 ?
It might be a stupid question but do you think that the difference would be significant between a GTX1660Ti and a RTX2060?
I was focusing on the CPU but with K9 now...
Quote from: levystore on September 19, 2019, 08:22:13 PM
It might be a stupid question but do you think that the difference would be significant between a GTX1660Ti and a RTX2060?
I was focusing on the CPU but with K9 now...
I would say YES. Luxion mentioned that KS GPU benefits mostly from the RTX technology.
RTX2060 has a performance increase of 30-60% (case dependent) in comparison to the 1060Ti, by default. The RTX core will be a multiplier to that value. How much, we'll see after the KS9 release ;)
Sneak peek, some of the numbers reported are for a P5000=106 seconds, same render on a RTX6000 = 35seconds
just beta non scientific results from the beta forum. And supposedly they are releasing a complete re-write of the GPU render soon so we will see what happens there.
Matt,
So if you were in the market for a new video card for your Ryzen Threadripper 2990WX machine, what would be a good one?
THANKS!
Perry (Furniture_Guy)
Quote from: mattjgerard on September 20, 2019, 05:48:33 AM
Sneak peek, some of the numbers reported are for a P5000=106 seconds, same render on a RTX6000 = 35seconds
just beta non scientific results from the beta forum. And supposedly they are releasing a complete re-write of the GPU render soon so we will see what happens there.
Hey mattjgerard
many thanks for this Sneak Peak!
Could you (or anyone who has information on this) add a rough time of any-kind of CPU to this comparison?
Just to get a feeling for it how fast this is.
Would be a big difference for the importance of GPU-path in KS9 if e.g. a 16core TR would be 120sec (nearly as fast as P5000) or 300sec...
If no time is available, a really rough factor in comparison to a named CPU type would do the trick...
Many thanks!!
Quote from: Furniture_Guy on September 20, 2019, 11:01:53 AM
Matt,
So if you were in the market for a new video card for your Ryzen Threadripper 2990WX machine, what would be a good one?
THANKS!
Perry (Furniture_Guy)
Nothing less than a Quadro RTX 8000. ;D
Quote from: Eric Summers on September 20, 2019, 01:00:40 PM
Quote from: Furniture_Guy on September 20, 2019, 11:01:53 AM
Matt,
So if you were in the market for a new video card for your Ryzen Threadripper 2990WX machine, what would be a good one?
THANKS!
Perry (Furniture_Guy)
Nothing less than a Quadro RTX 8000. ;D
Yessir! Will do...
Perry (Furniture_Guy)
I have no idea about GPU's these days, I fell off the GPU wagon back when I bought my GTX1080, and that was the best of the best. The mantra always was get the best you can afford.
Our GPU render times so far (without Global Illumination) with Quadro RTX 8000, 6000, and 5000 show a huge performance jump (time wise) with 6000 vs 5000, but also a relatively huge roll off in improvement from 6000 vs 8000 respectively. Regardless of price currently, the 6000 seems to be the sweet spot performer in our tests. We also see "real-time rendering" that is visually consistent (clarity wise) with our GPU render time performance. This of course may all change as KS9 continues to develop.
Ref: We utilize PCs running Windows 10 PRO on HP Z6 Intel(R) Xeon(R) Gold 6128 CPU@ 3.40 GHz 3.39 GHz (2 processor) 64GB RAM (usable) 64-bit operating system, x64 processor and 12 core/24 thread.
So, Rob, could you post a bar chart, say, with four columns for rendering the same scene with: CPU only, RTX4000, RTX5000 and RTX8000?
P5000 GPU RenderA 106.11 RenderB 109.55s w/o global illumination
RTX6000 GPU RenderA 34.14 RenderB 44.28s w/o global illumination
RTX8000 GPU RenderA 33.51 RenderB 45.16s w/o global illumination
-----NA---- CPU RenderA 2h42m56s RenderB 3h54m39s w/ global illumination
Network Rendering 220 cores RenderA 28m33s RenderB 30m33s w/ global illumination
These where standardized render files and single camera positions of the same rather complex transportation lighting assemblies.
The performance is measuring time it takes from initiating a render, to completion.
Each result was an average of three attempts of the same task. Not wholly scientific, but reasonably accurate I believe.
Many Thanks Rob!
Really a good jump by using RT-Cores in RTX cards.
would you mind adding values for CPU only?
Quote from: mafrieger on October 02, 2019, 12:13:45 PM
Many Thanks Rob!
Really a good jump by using RT-Cores in RTX cards.
would you mind adding values for CPU only?
Yes, coming... I will add the numbers to the previous chart (above).
Quote from: Eric Summers on September 20, 2019, 01:00:40 PM
Quote from: Furniture_Guy on September 20, 2019, 11:01:53 AM
Matt,
So if you were in the market for a new video card for your Ryzen Threadripper 2990WX machine, what would be a good one?
THANKS!
Perry (Furniture_Guy)
Nothing less than a Quadro RTX 8000. ;D
Bro... RTX8000 is a $6000 card... RTX6000 is $3500...
Man... these graphics cards are more expensive than most people's entire rig.
Quote from: dkwon89 on October 04, 2019, 05:28:57 PM
Quote from: Eric Summers on September 20, 2019, 01:00:40 PM
Quote from: Furniture_Guy on September 20, 2019, 11:01:53 AM
Matt,
So if you were in the market for a new video card for your Ryzen Threadripper 2990WX machine, what would be a good one?
THANKS!
Perry (Furniture_Guy)
Nothing less than a Quadro RTX 8000. ;D
Bro... RTX8000 is a $6000 card... RTX6000 is $3500...
Man... these graphics cards are more expensive than most people's entire rig.
hopefully we wouldn't need Quadro cards for Keyshot and the GeForce RTX cards would do the trick. still awaiting Luxion's response..
https://www.keyshot.com/forum/index.php?topic=25057.0
Watching the tests numbers.
If you want to use global illumination you can't use the GPU?
Or its a work in progress and will be possible?
Quote from: Jon-213 on October 22, 2019, 08:19:47 AM
Watching the tests numbers.
If you want to use global illumination you can't use the GPU?
Or its a work in progress and will be possible?
I'm not sure at all. It is not available on my current beta version. Has anyone seen from KS a decisive word? Perhaps we will just have to wait and see... Possibly some highlight will be presented at What's New in KeyShot 9 Thursday, October 31st, 2019 11:00 AM PDT webinar.
That will be the best option.
So... my preliminary findings... i9 9900k, Quadro P4000, ground and global illumination, 100 samples:
Image 1. cpu, no denoise: 4:49
Image 2. gpu, no denoise: 1:28
Image 3. gpu, denoise set to .5: 1:42
Image 4. cpu, denoise set to .5: 4:53
The samples would need to be bumped up on the gpu to get an image equivalent to cpu, but it would still be faster.
Interesting difference in the impact denoise has on rendering time between cpu and gpu.
Does anyone know how the display should be set up if I add a RTX 4000? Which should drive the display, P4000 or RTX 4000?
Shouldn't matter, really. Display output is such a small part of what GPU's do these days computationally speaking, that its not that big of a drain on resources. Years ago, yes, it would matter. But all modern cards have so much horsepower that its all the computational stuff that taxes them, not the display output itself. What might make a difference is the screen resolution. Get too crazy and it does have to calculate all those pixels. I've got 3 monitors plugged in to a n old GTX980 and it shows very little use when using keyshot. I have to sort out the driver issues before I can engage the GPU rendering though I'm not expecting much, as its a pretty powerful CPU workstation.
I disagree... maybe, because Keyshot will only use 8Gb of the available 16gb of ram on the two cards. So the question becomes what ram is Keyshot using if both cards are enabled?... the GDDR6 on the RTX 4000 or the GDDR5 on the P4000? If Keyshot uses whatever ram it will regardless of which card drives the displays, then you're correct.
I would think that how each card is set in the Nvidia Control Panel... "Dedicated to graphics tasks" or "Use for graphics and compute needs"... would also come into play. Although it makes sense that the later option would be the logical choice for both cards. Anyone?
Quote from: Prof on November 05, 2019, 08:41:53 PM
So... my preliminary findings... i9 9900k, Quadro P4000, ground and global illumination, 100 samples:
Image 1. cpu, no denoise: 4:49
Image 2. gpu, no denoise: 1:28
Image 3. gpu, denoise set to .5: 1:42
Image 4. cpu, denoise set to .5: 4:53
All the GPU renders look bad, right? Even the CPU render with no denoise looks better than the GPU with denoise.
The two are different, output appearance wise. You must set up the shot for either one or the other to get the look and quality you want. The rendering output set up is different as well... the samples must be bumped up 3x - 4x on gpu, but it's still faster depending on the scene and your hardware.
I did few tests too;
I cant post the screenshot because its a confidential machine i was rendering.
Hardware Dual Socket Xeon Workstation E5-2680v4 (28Cores total, HT deactivated) with 128GB Ram
RTX2070 Super
NW Renderer with 128 Cores total, on 7 Clients.(threadripper,1x old 4 socket 40Core Server, a few Ryzen 2700x Render slaves, dual sockel Xeon workstation) on all slave SMT / HT was deactivated
The Model has 1mio polygons.
It is a 4k image with 1024samples ; Product Mode default Keyshot settings, no special lights, our custom stainless steel material. Default KS enviroment
All Runs with denoise (Slider to 1)
11 Mins for GPU
97 Mins render on the Workstation
32 Mins with NW Render
Edit : I'll get a RTX6000 for testing from our supplier - i'll update my post with additional bechmarks
Why don't you pick models you can post pictures of so we can compare Image quality/difference if any. We all know gpu rendering is faster.
Hello,
I got an Xeon E5-2687W and Nvidia Quadro K5000. Shall I leave it on CPU rendering or switch to GPU rendering?
Rendering with these settings:
64 samples
32 ray bounces
8 antialiasing
8 shadow
4 global illumination
1.5 pixel blur
Sharp shadows - off
Sharper texture filtering – off
Global illumination cash – off
So, I wonder whether its better to render on CPU - Xeon E5-2687W v4 @ 3.00GHz or GPU - Quadro K5000