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Technical discussions => General discussion => Topic started by: DriesV on December 05, 2013, 12:02:29 PM

Title: Meanwhile at the competitor...
Post by: DriesV on December 05, 2013, 12:02:29 PM
Some rather interesting movement going on these days in the visualization market...

October 23, 2013:
RTT acquires Bunkspeed Inc.

December 5, 2013
Dassault Systèmes acquires RTT

Sounds a lot like "always a bigger fish". ;) How big can a fish get before it gets too big? Don't know about you guys, but I sincerely hope Luxion remains master controller of their own business.
Maybe Dassault desperately wanted to counteract Autodesk's acquisition of PI-VR (VRED)? Would make sense, as PI-VR and RTT were kind of fishing in the same pond (pun intended ;))...

What do you think?

Dries
Title: Re: Meanwhile at the competitor...
Post by: Barbarian on December 05, 2013, 12:48:17 PM
VRED sucks. Awful Awful program. poorly designed interface. No way near Keyshot or Showcase.
Title: Re: Meanwhile at the competitor...
Post by: Speedster on December 05, 2013, 02:50:34 PM
I can see where Photoview 360 is going.  Talk about sucks!  That's why I went with KeyShot "so many years ago"!  Well, five years ago, when we were all in the dark ages. 

But there's a critical message in the latest developments.  Traditional CAD, usually used for product design, is rapidly moving into CG Asset and Fine Art creation, at least at the user level, but the players are way behind the curve recognizing this.  I can hardly wait until I can convert SolidWorks into usable formats like Maya, etc.  And for SolidWorks to implement NURBS > subD conversion and/or capability. In my dreams!

Bill G
Title: Re: Meanwhile at the competitor...
Post by: TpwUK on December 05, 2013, 05:38:50 PM
This is going to make life interesting for you KS/SW users for sure. I can only imagine the acquisition route to be somewhat more complex than just a passing glance suggests. Maybe i am paranoid but i can see this rocking the boat in a few of areas.

1. I would assume that the KS/SW deal has been done with both parties applying restrictions to each other, such as SW not being allowed to create its own PR rendering solution. PV360 and KS both being third party render solutions suggests this. So this acquisition could see the end of these kind of partnerships

2. There is no support for SW files on Apple Mac other than two choices, KeyShot and Modo 701 via a rather pricey plugin. PV360 and Modo are both Foundry products and The Foundry is an official solutions provider/partner with Dassault. This now starts to open a pathway into the OSx platform which has picked up a few hundred thousand users as Windows 8 and 8.1 are not being that well received. Also Modo 701 has the much sought after live linkage to HDRiLightStudio that the Mac users want.

3. Take into account 1 and 2 above and that the visual effects market is pretty much all tied up by AutoDesk Max and Maya, the combination of The Foundry product line, Modo for SubD and a possible tighter partnership with SW for surface and solid modelling tools that might be able to be fed into the new Groboto integration into Modo 701 plus LightStudio and you are going to have a real power house suite for the movie/sfx/gaming market and not just ProdVis.

Am i being paranoid, or has Henrik been severely stabbed in the back and is possibly being removed from 'the loop' ? - What do you guys think ?

The outcome wont effect me as such as i will still use KS as it works with the tools that I use, but it sure as hell has got to sting!!

Martin
Title: Re: Meanwhile at the competitor...
Post by: DriesV on December 06, 2013, 04:38:12 AM
I think it is more than likely that future versions of SolidWorks will have a tight Bunkspeed integration. Perhaps starting in SolidWorks Mechanical Conceptual (aka CATIA Lite)? After all, CATIA already leverages iRay for rendering...

When my company was shopping for a rendering solution in 2011, KeyShot and Bunkspeed Shot (now PRO) were the only two viable candidates, because we needed a standalone tool that also non-CAD people could use. The fact that Bunkspeed software requires a powerful (discrete!) Nvidia GPU was a huge hindrance for us. The DTP machines in the marketing department have powerful quad core CPUs, but no GPU to speak off. Also, CPUs are way more flexible for network rendering. In the Bunkspeed Boost (NR module) specs I read:"In order to leverage GPU Boosting, the GPUs on all involved machines must be identical running identical drivers". That's a crazy restriction! If I want to improve KeyShot network rendering performance, I can just update one machine and be done with it.
The more I think about it, the more I am convinced that the CPU is the only right way in the long term. In this regard 2014-2015 will be especially exciting because we will finally see the advent of many-core CPUs. This development will be huge for parallel workloads. I think discrete GPU accelerated rendering (like most commercial GPU renderers) have no staying power; it's a transition phenomenon I believe.

I for one would never switch from KeyShot to anything depending solely on GPUs.

Just my 2cts though... ;)

Dries
Title: Re: Meanwhile at the competitor...
Post by: edwardo on December 06, 2013, 06:39:38 AM
I agree with Dries completely. I had come to the conclusion that CPU power was the best to harness. Less hassle, more reliable, and graphic cards seem to burn out quicker than other components. Bunk speed killed a few GPU's in my last place of work, and network rendering never worked (for the reasons Dries mentioned). Also, I'm a mac guy, and they always have 'last seasons' graphics cards for some reason (although the new mac pros seem to be uncharacteristically beefy with upto 2x 6Gb cards (AMD FirePro W700 I believe), yet only one 12core processor!). In short it seems to make sense to have CPUs as your main workhorse, but I do feel like keyshot could utilise graphics power more in terms of (non destructive) effects and such things. At the moment we only have vignetting and bloom. I'd love to see a lot more options, and the ability to fudge about with backplates (not have to jump back and forth with Photoshop). It's just the way I work - I'm a tinkerer and would like to tweek backplates as much as I tweek materials and lighting. Also, bunkspeed has/had the magnifying glass tool (fast rendering of specific area) which was super handy for me. I'm assuming that's GPU based? The 'render region' in keyshot just doesn't cut it for me at the moment, and it's not realtime. I would be a happy chappy if I could just markee an area (preferably an non-rectangle selection) in the realtime window and have it res-up quickly.

I'm going off topic, but basically I'm sticking with keyshot, and furthermore going to insist that it is purchased for me in whatever consultancy I may end up working in next. About 3 years ago I witnessed with my own eyes keyshot churn out exactly the same results, in the same time as bunkspeed. The only difference was keyshot was installed on a clapped out MacBook Pro and bunkspeed was installed on a brand new Armari desktop with top end graphics hardware.

A no-brainier in my opinion.
Ed
Title: Re: Meanwhile at the competitor...
Post by: Speedster on December 06, 2013, 07:24:04 AM
This whole thing scares the hell out of me, as my livelihood depends on how this monstrous chess game ends.  And we're all the pawns.  100% of my income derives from SolidWorks and KeyShot, with KS being a 30% profit center. 

If  a hassle develops between Dassault Systèmes (SolidWorks, and others) and third-party providers like KeyShot, I'm going to be one very unhappy camper, mainly because "their" solutions usually if not always suck.  A long standing corporate strategy is to practice exclusionary acquisition.  It's all about blocking out your competition not on the merits of your own product, but to ensure that your competition cannot compete on their merits. Buy the patent and bury it. Basic "Politics 101".

My hope is that all of the main players focus more on their core values, and allow us to chose those that meet our needs.  The one thing that has always impressed me about Luxion is that their core always has come first, and WE are that core.

Bill G
Title: Re: Meanwhile at the competitor...
Post by: edwardo on December 06, 2013, 08:03:08 AM
True that, bill!

Iv never witnessed a company that is as active on forums, listens to customers then impairments change accordingly as much as Luxion seems to. They seem to have their priorities straight, a true customercentric company.
Title: Re: Meanwhile at the competitor...
Post by: KeyShot on December 06, 2013, 11:02:26 AM
As a KeyShot user there is no need to be concerned about this acquisition. We will continue development as always, and we have no restrictions on reading SW files or writing plugins, and I don't see why Dassault would want to limit 3rd party software.

-- Henrik
Title: Re: Meanwhile at the competitor...
Post by: Ruckus on December 06, 2013, 11:06:29 AM
Quote from: edwardo on December 06, 2013, 08:03:08 AM
Iv never witnessed a company that is as active on forums, listens to customers then impairments change accordingly as much as Luxion seems to. They seem to have their priorities straight, a true customercentric company.
+10
Title: Re: Meanwhile at the competitor...
Post by: Speedster on December 06, 2013, 12:30:10 PM
QuoteI don't see why Dassault would want to limit 3rd party software

Valid point, Henrik.  In 2008, at SolidWorks World (when I bought my first seat of BunkSpeed, now KeyShot) I was having lunch with Jeff Wray, then CEO of SolidWorks, and we were discussing this very subject.  He was adamant about the value of a strong and robust Partnership community of 3rd party developers.  He said no one company can do it all, nor should they.  Strength comes from all being successful, bringing fresh eyes to the market, and by doing so expanding opportunity for all.

It does appear that Dessault is doing just that.  I hope it continues...

Bill G
Title: Re: Meanwhile at the competitor...
Post by: TpwUK on December 06, 2013, 01:42:57 PM
Wow, it's turning into a very interesting thread, and you guys are certainly adding some spice to the mix :)

KeyShot will remain the rendering engine of choice in my eyes no matter comes of this acquisition with Dassault. And I will continue to recommend it to anyone and everyone who has not tried it. Anyone remember Brazil R/S, that was a treat to use in it's day, but that now seems to have been tied into Rhino and has pretty much become a forgotten render solution, perhaps this will be the fete of Bunkspeed :P

CPU v's GPU, there is now competition here. GPU support either restricts you to a family of video cards or, you have to do lots of coding for each chip you're going to support and then things have the potential to get messy. I am still taking a time out on deciding if a hybrid system could work or not.

As Henrik says, there is little to be gained from restricting 3rd party developers, this is very true, however if you look at Max for example, which is wide open for plugin development, but then how many standalone render engines support the *.max filetype directly. As far as i know, this is still a big fat 0, unlike the original but somewhat limited 3DS format. This is what i mean by adding restrictions. I again assume that KS has a clause that says Dassault can't use their code directly for developing their own render engine, and I would also assume the same is true with Dassault saying Luxion may not use their code/methods to create a solid modelling app.

Do I think that Dassault are moving into OSx - I don't know, but I sure hope so. This as i have said in my previous post would be a shrewd move, and could certainly open the door for SW to get into the film and special effects market on both platforms. Even AutoDesk has started to bring over some of their apps to the Mac including Maya which effectively puts Maya back to its roots as a Linux app.

We are for sure entering an interesting few years now. Are these noises just a rumble in the tummy on 3D modelling and rendering scene or will it develop into a full blown feast where some big names are gonna have a field day with some of the smaller players .... I for one am gonna have my knife and fork ready even if it is just to tidy up some crumbs :)

Martin



Title: Re: Meanwhile at the competitor...
Post by: DriesV on December 06, 2013, 01:44:39 PM
Quote from: Ruckus on December 06, 2013, 11:06:29 AM
Quote from: edwardo on December 06, 2013, 08:03:08 AM
Iv never witnessed a company that is as active on forums, listens to customers then impairments change accordingly as much as Luxion seems to. They seem to have their priorities straight, a true customercentric company.
+10
x2

Bill, I agree wholeheartedly on the value of 3rd party software. Smaller players are often more flexible and much more innovative for that reason.
It's just that I see an awful lot of consolidation happening in the 3D design (not just CAD/CAM) software/service space, with truly innovative independent companies being swallowed by giants. Autodesk probably being on top of their game in this regard... Whether this is truly good or bad I leave open for debate. However, it increasingly divides the 3D design userbase in fortresses. With each harnessing their own closed ecosystem of tools. F.i. you used to be able to grab a retail copy of Sketchbook Designer, now you need an Autodesk Suite to get hold of it...

Dries
Title: Re: Meanwhile at the competitor...
Post by: xxl66 on August 17, 2014, 08:40:11 PM
Like comparing David and Goliath or BricsCAD compared to AutoCAD. Just buy a new workstation, install the latest AutoCAD and you can start swearing.
Title: Re: Meanwhile at the competitor...
Post by: DriesV on November 12, 2014, 01:31:35 AM
Interesting update:

Autodesk acquires Lagoa
http://canadianprivateequity.com/autodesk-acquires-venture-backed-lagoateamup-technologies/2014/11/05/ (http://canadianprivateequity.com/autodesk-acquires-venture-backed-lagoateamup-technologies/2014/11/05/)

A huge fish gets humongous. :)
So I guess this is going to be a part of Fusion 360 then?
So this means 'Lagoa CAD' plans get shutdown then? (Lagoa licensed Parasolid. Would be strange if Autodesk continued this...)

Btw, $60 Million seems like a ridiculously high price for a company that struggled to turn a profit.

Dries
Title: Re: Meanwhile at the competitor...
Post by: thomasteger on November 12, 2014, 05:59:14 AM
Wow - thanks for sharing, Dries. Indeed, it makes no sense.
Title: Re: Meanwhile at the competitor...
Post by: DriesV on November 12, 2014, 06:11:45 AM
Thomas,

It's still strangely unofficial (no press from Autodesk or Lagoa as of yet...), but true nonetheless.
I thought we learned something when the dinosaurs went extinct. :)

No offence to anyone, but I'm getting disgusted of all the consolidation in CAD/CAM/PLM these days...
Consolidate or die?

Dries
Title: Re: Meanwhile at the competitor...
Post by: thomasteger on November 12, 2014, 06:18:16 AM
Yes, we were just chatting about this, too. It happened a week ago, and supposedly closed in mid-October. Very strange.
Title: Re: Meanwhile at the competitor...
Post by: DriesV on November 12, 2014, 06:27:50 AM
On a positive note:
If Lagoa is worth $60 million, then Luxion is worth a billion. ;D
Valuations these days are laughable! Or I am too stupid to realize market potential. Bubble, I say.

Still, please don't sell your soul to the devil. ::)

Dries
Title: Re: Meanwhile at the competitor...
Post by: KeyShot on November 12, 2014, 06:57:16 AM
Don't worry Dries. We enjoy what we do :-)
Title: Re: Meanwhile at the competitor...
Post by: DriesV on November 12, 2014, 09:11:09 AM
Henrik, you saved my day! 8)

Dries
Title: Re: Meanwhile at the competitor...
Post by: HaroldL on October 03, 2015, 01:48:03 PM
I received a "Breaking News" email from 3ds the other day announcing the upcoming release of SolidWorks Visualize, the renamed Bunkspeed, as a stand-alone app to be included with the top SW packages starting with 2016 sp1 (or so I am told).

http://www.solidworks.com/visualize


Meanwhile I'm glad I stayed with KeyShot and am anticipating the release of KS6 and an eventual upgrade to Pro.

HaroldL
Title: Re: Meanwhile at the competitor...
Post by: joseph on October 08, 2015, 11:57:07 PM
The CAD industry giants has gone to consolidation mode to a point of being monopoly. I remember in the past that the investment for software, training and hardware was almost prohibitive to an individual. Then there entry level and mid range cad  that cost less and hardware requirements less costly as the pc's got affordable. SWx was snapped by Dasault to be revenue stream against their Catia, same story as for Solid Edge in relation to NX - all set a trend with workstation class gpu  to cash in as cpu prices went down but scaled in performance. I do hope that openCL working with cpu comes in play with keyshot as a supplemental neutral resource availability with current state of gpu baseline feature away from proprietary cuda.

me thinking aloud
Title: Re: Meanwhile at the competitor...
Post by: DriesV on November 04, 2015, 02:40:48 AM
I think in the end, it all converges. The renderer with the most efficient and fastest code will win.
GPUs get more complex and general instruction sets. CPUs get more cores.
GPUs still have a long way to go before they reach the same level of flexibility as CPUs though...
Also, Intel is releasing Xeon Phi x200 (Knights Landing) in 2016. That's a 72 core, 288 thread CPU. I think it will be a game-changer.
Title: Re: Meanwhile at the competitor...
Post by: texax on November 13, 2015, 09:18:22 AM
Quote from: HaroldL on October 03, 2015, 01:48:03 PM
I received a "Breaking News" email from 3ds the other day announcing the upcoming release of SolidWorks Visualize, the renamed Bunkspeed, as a stand-alone app to be included with the top SW packages starting with 2016 sp1 (or so I am told).

http://www.solidworks.com/visualize

Meanwhile I'm glad I stayed with KeyShot and am anticipating the release of KS6 and an eventual upgrade to Pro.

HaroldL

This is a nice one for a quick render but its no where near what KS currently can do like perspective matching, instancing, etc.
And now that KS6 is getting a basic support for interior rendering its clear where this game is heading at.

Renderers are getting crazy these days, just take a look at Clarisse CPU based environment generator with volumetrics that is as fast as Arnold. I get to change the angles, multiply object and get instant results for mattes. That leaves poor Maxwell so behind, unless hyperrealism is your requirement I don't see a point using Maxwell at all.
Title: Re: Meanwhile at the competitor...
Post by: marcfeber on February 25, 2016, 11:19:55 PM
Any other tough competitor of Keyshot. :D ;)