issue - layer unhiding tree

[andy.engelkemier]

This isn't a bug. But it's a big issue, I think.

When you hide a layer group, then later show the group, it shows ALL the layers and layer groups within that.
Although that would be a nice right click option, "show all layers in group," that should not be the default option.

Some people may only really render one simple product at a time. Lucky you. For the rest of us, we have to try and be smart about creating different product iterations within one file so we don't have to apply materials over and over, and keep file size small.
In my current project, I have a lid up. Shelves in multiple positions, 2 different wheel rotations, and a couple other things I can't remember off the top of my head.

I'm currently matching my render to a photo, and the product isn't Quite the same. I need to tweak the ground shadow so that it matches the photo, And the slightly different render. Because of that, I duplicate the product, apply an emissive material and change the color to black. Now I can turn off visibility to camera and render Just the ground shadow very quickly. If you hadn't thought of that before, that's a great "quick tip."
The problem with that is, I've turned my previous model off. Now when I turn that model back on, ALL the iterations come with it. I have to dig back through the model and make sure each group is on/off as I previously had. But why doesn't it just remember the checkboxes?

So that's what I'm looking for. Turning a model group on shouldn't effect the checks below it. Each check box should be completely separate. This has bitten me So many times. Some small part, only in an "out" position in one view ends up poking through the model and it's hardly noticeable. Then I see it in photoshop because now it's full size. Shoot! Now I have to go back and render region. And then blend the edges, because you always see the edges for some reason.

[bdesign]

Andy-

Before turning the entire model off, multi-select all the iterations that are turned off, right-click, and select "Lock". Now you can turn the model off, and when you turn it back on, the locked iterations will still be off. You can also create multiple scene sets with different on/off combinations of groups and layers, different materials, etc. Hope this helps.

Eric

[andy.engelkemier]

Well, that could help a Little. But it has the same type of issue with parent/child relationships. If you lock a parent, then unlock the parent later, all children are also unlocked.

Also don't get me started on scene sets. I have found that feature to be more of a headache than useful. I'll just leave it at that for today.

[guest84672]

Andy - can you please explain? We are revamping scene sets for KeyShot 7. It would be good to understand what the issues are you are currently having.

Thanks, Thomas

[andy.engelkemier]

It comes down to workflow. Now, I haven't attempted to use them in a while. Each time i've attempted it, I ended up screwing up my file. It is very difficult to update a scene set. For example, if I have 2 models and need them in a few different positions for different cameras. Lets say side by side for front, then both angled in a 3q for perspective. There would potentially be more. It's Really rare that I would need different materials myself for those, but let's say that we also need one set for black, and one for white. So I set those up. Yay, done.
Shoot. Now someone replace the bezel around the display. Now I have to start over pretty much.
And after setting up the materials, the metal changed from satin to brushed for the shelf. It's the same material for the white and black version, but I have to create it for each state?
I find it much easier to just duplicate the entire object, position it, and have the materials applied. Then I just keep a contact sheet of what is to be visible/hidden for each shot.
The difficulty Really become for environments. Since you can't keep multiple environments in the scene at once, something bunkspeed had, you have to write down the environment and settings for each shot. That's a huge pain. And someone always suggests using something like scene sets, but since they are such a pain to update, it becomes too much of a hassle. If something goes wrong, your whole file could be hosed. i'd much rather just keep everything in front of me, so if something gets lost along the way I can see what happened. And this also keeps duplicate materials accounted for much easier.

I'm not sure exactly how you guys intended to use scene sets. The examples I've seen haven't looked like it would save me any time. Instead, I should have just queued the render, then made the next change. And I'm sure what I'm looking for is quite difficult to do. 3dsMax tried to do it and also failed, then later abandoned the idea, although, they created something similar for assistance with building composite renders right within the software but I haven't spent any time with that yet because I don't usually have time to do 8 render passes for each shot. There just isn't the budget or time for it. That being said, I Do typically do a clown pass, and create my own ground shadow pass.

I doubt much of that helped you guys. It's pretty difficult to describe why I don't use it.

[Robb63]

I use scene sets all the time, but still have major issues in the workflow. Here are a couple of things right off the bat...

1. It would be nice if the scene set didn't save until you pressed a save button (like the camera).
2. I'd like to be able to duplicate a scene to use it as a starting point for the next change to a part.
3. Importing a new part to the overall KS model adds it to all scenes, or lets you choose to. I had to add some data today to a model to use as pivots in an animation, and I had to import them into each scene I had created, instead of importing them once and having them populate to the other scenes.

I didn't list this next one above as it is the first time I tried it as part of my workflow. This is a situation I encountered with scene sets today... I had four scenes (different colors/configs of the same product), that a client needed me to combine into one scene with all four colors. I exported each scene, then combined them. It went horribly wrong. Scenes I had deleted started showing, up, and different model configs. Then, what rendered wasn't what was in the preview.

Scene sets are very powerful, but they can be tricky. I'm glad to hear you are revamping them.

[andy.engelkemier]

That last paragraph there. That is why I don't use scene sets in production. I have had similar experiences with things just showing up/crossing over, no explanation of why things went wrong. Since there isn't a UI specific to scene sets, like a tab or something, it's pretty difficult to tell what's going wrong, and what you're doing wrong. Maybe I'm just expecting the wrong thing?

[multitech]

I did not see this post before I requested for the same thing to be changed in the Wish List forum.  I concur with Andy that hidden and locked sub groups will unlock if you toggle the parent group visibility on/off in KS Pro 6.2.105. 

I also work with hundreds to thousands of parts in different visibility on/off configurations and and different part orientation and location configurations.  Scene Sets can cause more headache than it helps me. 

Also +1 to everything Robb63 requested.

Mike 

[guest84672]

We are undertaking a major redesign of how Scene Sets work, and also how you interact with them. This will be available in KeyShot 7.

[bdesign]

And after setting up the materials, the metal changed from satin to brushed for the shelf. It's the same material for the white and black version, but I have to create it for each state?

If the Scene Sets are created with the "Link Materials" option checked, changing the material type once should change it in all Scene Sets.

The difficulty Really become for environments. Since you can't keep multiple environments in the scene at once, something bunkspeed had, you have to write down the environment and settings for each shot.

Creating Viewsets under the Camera tab allows saving multiple Environment/Camera combinations in the scene. Is this not what you're after?

1. It would be nice if the scene set didn't save until you pressed a save button (like the camera).

To allow more flexibility while experimenting with possible iterations within a new Scene Set, you can utilize the Revision Manager. Go to Edit>Preferences>Backup Revisions, enable "Create a serialized backup revision with each save", and set a fairly high "Backup history depth". Add a new Scene Set. Make a change. Save. Make another change. Save. And so on. Now you can go to File>Revision Mangager and scroll through the list to compare possible choices, and use "Revert to selected revision" to check them out in the viewport. Once you make a final decision, you can choose "Delete old revisions" to start fresh.

2. I'd like to be able to duplicate a scene to use it as a starting point for the next change to a part.

With the desired Scene Set active, right-click Scene Sets>Add Scene Set. This will create a new Scene Set which is a duplicate of the active Scene Set.

I didn't list this next one above as it is the first time I tried it as part of my workflow. This is a situation I encountered with scene sets today... I had four scenes (different colors/configs of the same product), that a client needed me to combine into one scene with all four colors. I exported each scene, then combined them. It went horribly wrong. Scenes I had deleted started showing, up, and different model configs. Then, what rendered wasn't what was in the preview.

Are you exporting them with File>Save Active Scene Set? Then, opening one and importing the others?

Eric