Scene set interaction inconsistencies are driving me crazy

[eobet]

I find it really difficult to juggle scene sets in Keyshot. The principle is wonderful, but in reality, I never know when a user interaction only affects the current scene, vs when it affects the entire file.

For example, pasting a linked material seems to only affect the current scene set... but dragging and dropping a material affects the entire file? Maybe I'm getting this wrong, but yesterday I did manage to have different colors on my model in different scene sets, and today, suddenly when I switched scene sets after changing a color, the entire model had changed!

Also, I find that not even showing imported geometry in all scene sets unless you explicitly use the "copy to sceneset" function is amazingly confusing. Why not just hide it in all other scene sets by default?

Transformations are apparently always local to a scene, but that begs the question, where is the "copy to sceneset" for transformations?

[DriesV]

Hi eobet,

Not sure I understand your exact workflow and setup, but here is some feedback.

...pasting a linked material seems to only affect the current scene set... but dragging and dropping a material affects the entire file?...

Materials can be copied and pasted as linked onto parts/groups/models. When you drag and drop a material, it will be applied to all parts/groups/models where the original material was linked.

...different colors on my model in different scene sets, and today, suddenly when I switched scene sets after changing a color, the entire model had changed!

I am not sure what is happening here? Can you provide an example or screengrabs?

Also, I find that not even showing imported geometry in all scene sets unless you explicitly use the "copy to sceneset" function is amazingly confusing. Why not just hide it in all other scene sets by default?

There is a reason why we don't just import models in all Scene Sets. You can think of Scene Sets as separate containers for your models. They allow for a focused workflow when working with different (separate) models.

Transformations are apparently always local to a scene, but that begs the question, where is the "copy to sceneset" for transformations?

The ability to copy and paste model transformations from one model to another is logged as an improvement already.

Dries

[mattjgerard]

Following this thread closely. I am relatively new to KS, and find the ideas of scene and view-sets very very powerful. But, as the OP stated, its confusing, and inconsistent.

I finally figured out that scene-sets can be seen as individual KS documents inside one project. Each one can be unique, and allows copying and pasting materials, objects, and things in between scene sets. Sort of like what everyone is screaming for, the ability to copy and paste between different bip files, but its all done within one bip file, just different scene-sets.

View-sets hold everything but geometry. This is where my files are very inconsistent. I have 2 cameras (view-sets), and i finally figured out that the environment chosen is tied to a particular view-set. i could have a different environment for each view-set I had. But, you have to explicitly SAVE each view-set after changes are made or you will loose the changes.

But not all the time, sometimes the changes are saved automatically. I can see this by looking in the "camera" tab and see that sometimes the camera is labeled "Back View (unsaved)" until I click the save icon. But sometimes that "unsaved" verbiage flashes up then goes away indicating that something auto saved my changes.

IF there was a a grid that we could visually see what is affected and saved (manually or automatically) with Scene sets and view-sets that would be fantastic.

Say I have a family of products with 5 items. Would a good workflow be to create 5 separate bip files, or import them all into one bip file and create a scene-set for each one? Does the size of the bip file matter much, or can they run huge without slowing down? How many scene sets are too many in one doc? Once I create the 5 scene-sets, is there a way to change things globally (environments, lighting, render settings) or do I have to manually propagate those changes into each of the 5 scene-sets?

So many questions.....

Matt

[Will Gibbons]

Following this thread closely. I am relatively new to KS, and find the ideas of scene and view-sets very very powerful. But, as the OP stated, its confusing, and inconsistent.

I finally figured out that scene-sets can be seen as individual KS documents inside one project. Each one can be unique, and allows copying and pasting materials, objects, and things in between scene sets. Sort of like what everyone is screaming for, the ability to copy and paste between different bip files, but its all done within one bip file, just different scene-sets.

The above is correct for all intents and purposes. Scene Sets are intended to allow for different geometry/models, location/position of geometry, whether that geometry is visible or hidden and different material combinations. That is all.

View-sets hold everything but geometry. This is where my files are very inconsistent. I have 2 cameras (view-sets), and i finally figured out that the environment chosen is tied to a particular view-set. i could have a different environment for each view-set I had. But, you have to explicitly SAVE each view-set after changes are made or you will loose the changes.

Viewsets allow you to have unique camera and environment settings. Nothing more, nothing less. Cameras, do NOT retain environment settings, so cameras and Viewsets are not the same. You'd use cameras when you want multiple views or renderings of a model in a consistent environment. Viewsets are used when you want renderings of an object in various lighting or environment situations. This prevents you from needing to re-create the lighting every time you want a different rendering. It also speeds up an iterative work-flow.

But not all the time, sometimes the changes are saved automatically. I can see this by looking in the "camera" tab and see that sometimes the camera is labeled "Back View (unsaved)" until I click the save icon. But sometimes that "unsaved" verbiage flashes up then goes away indicating that something auto saved my changes.

Cameras and Viewsets never automatically save. You must actively save to apply an update to a given camera or Viewset. If you make a change to ANY camera setting or ANY environment setting, a Viewset will say (unsaved) until you click the save icon to apply those changes. This is KeyShot's way of telling you that you've made a change that will not be applied to the active camera or Viewset until you click 'save'. If you see the (unsaved) message and you make active a different camera or Viewset and you return to the one that previously said (unsaved), it will have reverted to the previous state because you didn't actively save your changes and the (unsaved) note disappears, not because it's now been saved, but it discarded your unsaved change.

Say I have a family of products with 5 items. Would a good workflow be to create 5 separate bip files, or import them all into one bip file and create a scene-set for each one?

This depends on what you wish to accomplish.

Does the size of the bip file matter much, or can they run huge without slowing down? How many scene sets are too many in one doc?

This is entirely subjective and dependent upon your hardware of course. It comes down to the number of triangles in the scene, not the number of models or parts. If you're working with more than 10 million triangles, you might start to see things slow down a bit. I've also seen much heavier scenes work fine though. Depends on the computer, your materials and render settings. I've never seen a document with too many Scene Sets.

Once I create the 5 scene-sets, is there a way to change things globally (environments, lighting, render settings) or do I have to manually propagate those changes into each of the 5 scene-sets?

You need to apply changes to each Scene Set in this case. When making Scene Sets, you have the option to link materials, so that could be a global change. You can also, by assigning cameras and Viewsets to Scene Sets, change out the camera and environment settings fore each Scene Set without re-creating those settings for each one. I can make a Studio Viewset with studio lighting and backplate and camera and apply it to each one of my Scene Sets (which could each contain a different model). And I could repeat this process for a catalog shot, or a situational image. That's the power of using Scene Sets and Viewsets together. 

So many questions.....

That's alright! If you're new here, that's to be expected. Asking questions is the best way to learn. There's a new feature in KeyShot 7 that should simplify this workflow.

[DriesV]

Hi Matt,

Btw, in this thread here is a diagram I made to help explain the concepts of Viewsets and Scene Sets.

We are aware of the usability issues that currently exist with Viewsets and Scene Sets.

I finally figured out that scene-sets can be seen as individual KS documents inside one project. Each one can be unique, and allows copying and pasting materials, objects, and things in between scene sets. Sort of like what everyone is screaming for, the ability to copy and paste between different bip files, but its all done within one bip file, just different scene-sets. 

I like to think of Scene Sets as 'containers' or 'studios'. Different booths where you put your models in. Scene Sets are really containers for models. You are right about the ability to copy/paste materials and models in between Scene Sets.
Additionally, a Camera or Viewset can be assigned to each Scene Set.

View-sets hold everything but geometry. This is where my files are very inconsistent. I have 2 cameras (view-sets), and i finally figured out that the environment chosen is tied to a particular view-set. i could have a different environment for each view-set I had. But, you have to explicitly SAVE each view-set after changes are made or you will loose the changes.

You are right. A Viewset is a combination of Camera and Enviornment settings. And indeed, any changes to Camera OR Environment that you want to persist, need to be saved in the Camera tab!

But not all the time, sometimes the changes are saved automatically. I can see this by looking in the "camera" tab and see that sometimes the camera is labeled "Back View (unsaved)" until I click the save icon. But sometimes that "unsaved" verbiage flashes up then goes away indicating that something auto saved my changes. 

We are never (never ever!) auto saving any changes to existing Cameras or Viewsets. Changes always have to be committed by pressing the Save button in the Camera tab. The only possible ways for the unsaved state 'tag' to go away, is by either activating another Camera or by pressing the Reset button (next to Save).

IF there was a a grid that we could visually see what is affected and saved (manually or automatically) with Scene sets and view-sets that would be fantastic. 

This is  what we are introducing in KeyShot 7 with the concept of Studios. Studios are very explicit presets of combinations of Model Sets (the reworked Scene Sets, with more flexibility and improved ease of use),  Cameras and Environments. For each active Studio, you will always be able to see which Model Sets, Camera and Environment are used.

Say I have a family of products with 5 items. Would a good workflow be to create 5 separate bip files, or import them all into one bip file and create a scene-set for each one? Does the size of the bip file matter much, or can they run huge without slowing down? How many scene sets are too many in one doc? Once I create the 5 scene-sets, is there a way to change things globally (environments, lighting, render settings) or do I have to manually propagate those changes into each of the 5 scene-sets? 

It is a slippery slope trying to give one-size-fits-all advice. :-) Every product, every company, every workflow is different.
Scene Sets can also be used in several ways. You can have a number of Scene Sets, where each one contains a different product model. Or, you can have a number of Scene Sets, all with the same model (models are always instanced when you create a new Scene Set), but with material variations (or animation variations).
Are you rendering small electronic products? Then I think it almost always makes sense to consider putting them in Scene Sets in one bip file.
Are you rendering oil tankers? Then you should probably steer away from importing a bunch of them in one bip file.
The size of the bip file doesn't impact the rendering speed. Of course, larger bip files take longer to open and save. If you are using Network Rendering, then transfer times will also increase.
How many Scene Sets is considered 'safe' is hard to tell. It will come down to convenience, workflow, bip file size and practicality. There are benefits to separating out in different bip files as well from a product document management point of view.
Regarding global vs local (specific to a particular Scene Set) settings...
Render settings and Lighting settings (Lighting tab) always apply globally. These are independent from Scene Sets.
You can assign a Camera or Viewset to a Scene Set (by selecting the Scene Set in the Scene tab). If you assign one and the same Viewset to 5 Scene Sets, then each Scene Set will use the same Camera and Environment. Changes to that Viewset will then propagate to all Scene Sets.

Dries

[Will Gibbons]

Looks like Dries replied to your questions after I began doing so... and our replies are consistent... so there you go! Double the answers for your money.

[mattjgerard]

Loads if great info. Its starting to click into place in my brain. The hierarchy is tough to conceptualize for sure, but I'm starting to get it.

I realize its hard to give a one fits all solution, and that is where I really appreciate the flexibility that the scene/view sets and cameras give. Now that I understand that the little icons for viewsets and cameras are in fact different if I get my nose close enough to the screen, it is making much more sense as to why my HDRI was changing when I thought I was just switching cameras.

[eobet]

I still don't get when a material is applied to the current scene set and when it's applied to all scene sets.

Also, a scene set automatically saves upon changes, but a view set does not? Ugh... inconsistent UI design, as I said.

I'd like a HUGE toggle button on the main menu for applying changes to the current scene set or all scene sets.

...and I haven't even tried to begin to use view sets. Not looking forward to it, honestly.

EDIT: First view set impression... zero idea how it works. Completely unintuitive, despite having used Keyshot for five years now.

EDIT 2: The fact that the camera views list randomly sorts itself differently depending on god-knows-what is also really annoying!

[Esben Oxholm]

I still don't get when a material is applied to the current scene set and when it's applied to all scene sets.

It depends on if your materials are linked between the scene sets or not.
When creating a new scene set you can opt in or out wether you want the materials to be linked with the other scene sets or not. The decision here is not definite. You can always link or unlink materials across scene sets afterwards.

Hope it helps a bit.

[DriesV]

Good feedback, Esben.

When creating a new Scene Set, the default behavior is to create UNLINKED materials, unless you check 'Link Materials' in the 'Add Scene Set' dialog.
"Accidentally" applying a material across different Scene Sets can happen when you copy a material (Shift + LMB) in one Scene Set and paste it (Shift + RMB) in another Scene Set. But then again, that can also very well be a deliberate action.

Dries

[DriesV]

This Quicktip is a pretty solid intro to Scene Sets and Viewsets.
https://youtu.be/HsbAnGhwSBg

Dries

[fattkid]

More helpful info - thanks folks.

Hopefully I'm not hijacking here, but Esben mentioned something earlier I'm curious about....

You can always link or unlink materials across scene sets afterwards.

How might one do that?

[Rex]

To unlink a material: right-click on an object > Unlink Material
To link a material: dnd the material from the in-Project materials list onto the object

Also note that you can filter, by visibility or scene set, what materials are displayed in the in-project materials list by the icon in the bottom right corner.

Hope that helps

[eobet]

Ok, so more gray hairs from this:

• I chose "select parts with material" to highlight all parts with a material in a scene set.
• I then pasted another linked material on it. This caused the original material to disappear from the list!
• I then checked the other scene sets, and they were replaced too!! Why???
• And when I tried to recreate the same material in the scene sets where they were wrongly replaced, I got the error that the material name already exists!

The interactions here are still screwed beyond any reasonably usable way, so I really hope that future versions make it perfectly clear which operations are scene set wide and which are "local" to the current scene set...

Argh!

[mattjgerard]

Ok, so more gray hairs from this:

• I chose "select parts with material" to highlight all parts with a material in a scene set.

Which selected all the parts with the current material assigned to it.

• I then pasted another linked material on it. This caused the original material to disappear from the list!

Which is the expected behavior, since all instances of that material were already selected, by pasting another material it effective replaced all those instances of the original material. Since the original material is no longer being used anywhere in the scene, there is no reason for it to be in the list.

• I then checked the other scene sets, and they were replaced too!! Why???

Most likely because all instances of that material were "Linked Materials" which propogates the changes of one instance of the material to other instances. One small way of telling if a material is linked or not is if there is a # after the material name followed by a number. This can indicate that it is a copy of the original material, not linked to that original instance of the material.

• And when I tried to recreate the same material in the scene sets where they were wrongly replaced, I got the error that the material name already exists!

This might be due to the original material already being present in the material library, but just not being in the scenes. If you try to create a material and explicitly save it to the library, it will conflict if the name is the same as another already existing material. In that case it is not "live" in your project, it is just residing in the library waiting to be used. Applying it to an object in your project will then cause it to be listed in the scene material list.

The interactions here are still screwed beyond any reasonably usable way, so I really hope that future versions make it perfectly clear which operations are scene set wide and which are "local" to the current scene set...

Argh!

I think the one thing that is screwing you up is whether the materials are linked or not. If they are linked the changes (including being replaced) is carried across all scene sets to all instances of the material. It would be really nice to have a "Scene Set Manager" window that would layout the different scenes and some how give a listing of the status of each scene set, which materials are being used, if they are linked, the ability to sync and link the materials from single scene sets or link materials from different scene sets, which cameras are being used, etc. Would be a manipulative window for data that is already in the project, just a global way of viewing and changing that data. But from what I hear, they are already on this, and have made some sweeping changes to the way it all works with the invent of the idea of "studios" as shown in their keyshot 7 quick peek video teaser. Can't wait.