Author Topic: Problems getting a lacquer effect on wood  (Read 1223 times)

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Offline Frank_____

Problems getting a lacquer effect on wood
« on: May 02, 2020, 03:29:52 am »
Hi, I'm fairly new to Keyshot but I've done a lot of research in here and elsewhere but can't seem to get this to work. I think that my material graph looks right & am assuming it might be to do with my lighting? I've attached a sample of my render & an example of the kind of effect I'm looking for. Any help apreciated, TIA!

Offline andy.engelkemier

Re: Problems getting a lacquer effect on wood
« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2020, 11:40:11 am »
Well there's no clear coat control there. So you're not missing anything. Although, that roughness map looks too light for keyshot. So you should run that through a texture to number converter, and reduce the last 1 value until you're happy with the look.

You could try using a metalic paint. That has clear coat built in. It really sucks Keyshot doesn't have a proper PBR material yet. There's no material that can just do it all, and they don't let you mix materials. You can only layer them with transparency. I think Esben did a tutorial on getting carbon fiber with clear coat, but it's disappointing because it's just using transparency. You get the same effect if you render once with wood, then once with chrome, then just decide how transparent you want the chrome in phtoshop. But if you do it that way, you could just use something like overlay,hard light, or soft light...depending on what you're after.

So metallic paint has clear coat built in. Just turn the flake all the way off, and if you'll have to make some sacrifices. I think the base color might be diffuse, then it builds the metal on top of that with a fresnel curve of some sort? You change that based on the metal coverage slider. Well deciding how metal Wood is...is obviously faking some things. But the base color doesn't have a roughness control. So you'll plug the roughness map into the metal map and just put the diffuse map in both base and metal color. You might need to add a color adjustment layer for the one that goes into metal color, as that one can get tricky.

The big downside, unless they fixed it since last time I noticed....although the clearcoat gets it's own bump map, it will take on the bump map of the base as well. I think. I could be wrong on that one.

NOW, if you want to get FANCY, and don't mind some terrible render times. You duplicate the model, and offset it. You CAN do that in keyshot, but it's a pretty gnarly solution. It works though.
Duplicate your entire model. Leave the one you have alone. Create a new material for that whole model. This will be your clear coat. Make it solid glass or dielectric. Add a Ray mask and put that into the opacity of the glass. Turn off cast shadows.  Now create a color adjustment node and just make the color white. Plug that into a displace node. Before connecting it make sure and give it the thickness of your clearcoat. Try something like 1mm first. That's pretty thick, but it'll let you know if you want to go up or down from there. The default might be something Crazy and will take a while to calculate.
Now plug that into the geometry node and wait for it to calculate.
Oh, make sure your table is to scale. Most people never check that, I have found. Which is why their camera settings never work right for DOF, and the material settings for transparency thickness don't work.

So that works, but it is NOT fast. If you like the look of it though, run back into your DCC and just push all the polygons in the normal direction at the same time. Often you can just do that as a displacement modifier that only moves the existing geometry.

Offline Frank_____

Re: Problems getting a lacquer effect on wood
« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2020, 04:07:11 am »
Thanks for the detailed reply! The metallic paint did the best job, I just played about with the settings for a while & got the kind of look I was going for, this is where I've got to at the moment. Really appreciate the help, I've been stuck in a loop for days.

Offline designgestalt

Re: Problems getting a lacquer effect on wood
« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2020, 03:45:38 am »
to add to what Andy already explained in detail, you might want to take a look at this:

https://forum.keyshot.com/index.php?topic=20984.msg89687#msg89687

this is an approach with an anisotrophic material and with my own experience, I think that works the best!

cheers
designgestalt

Offline andy.engelkemier

Re: Problems getting a lacquer effect on wood
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2020, 04:34:50 pm »
Ha, even Will is, without actually saying it, Keyshot needs to get a decent material out there for advanced uses. For anyone that uses other 3d rendering software, it's not even an advanced use.
Can you please just copy the Pixar's principled shader like blender did Luxion? Please?

Offline Niko Planke

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Re: Problems getting a lacquer effect on wood
« Reply #5 on: May 06, 2020, 12:32:10 am »
Hey,

I am not entirely sure if this is what you refer to with Pixar's principled shader but i think its the same as what is also referred to as Disney BRDF.
Inside KeyShot you can find it under the name Generic Material: https://luxion.atlassian.net/wiki/spaces/K9M/pages/1142325249/Generic.
Which is Based on the Disney BRDF shader.

This also means that we can import Unified 3D Material (.u3m) or Substance Painter Project (.sp) files and map them to this shader.

Online TGS808

Re: Problems getting a lacquer effect on wood
« Reply #6 on: May 06, 2020, 07:49:16 am »
I think Esben did a tutorial on getting carbon fiber with clear coat, but it's disappointing because it's just using transparency.

That tutorial is from three years ago. He has since done a new one (as part of the Oxfjord Academy course he released with Magnus) where he uses the Generic material to make a carbon fiber.

Online TGS808

Re: Problems getting a lacquer effect on wood
« Reply #7 on: May 06, 2020, 07:52:45 am »
Ha, even Will is, without actually saying it, Keyshot needs to get a decent material out there for advanced uses. For anyone that uses other 3d rendering software, it's not even an advanced use.

In fairness, Will made that comment two years ago, before KeyShot had the Generic material.

Offline andy.engelkemier

Re: Problems getting a lacquer effect on wood
« Reply #8 on: May 06, 2020, 11:30:35 am »
Yes, I'm sorry. The Disney BRDF. They nicknamed it Principled, if you look at their document. It is designed as Plausible, rather than physical. I had played with it a few times when I first learned about the experimental stuff in keyshot.
I can't seem to find any info on the course Esben put together. That's ok, I don't have much need for carbon fiber materials at the moment.
I didn't realize that tutorial was old. It recently came up on my feed. I skimmed it, but skipped it once I realized he wasn't actually adding a clearcoat. He was just using opacity of two materials to looks "good enough."

Online TGS808

Re: Problems getting a lacquer effect on wood
« Reply #9 on: May 06, 2020, 11:51:20 am »
I can't seem to find any info on the course Esben put together. That's ok, I don't have much need for carbon fiber materials at the moment.

It's really a walk though of the Generic Material's features but in it, he makes a carbon fiber just to show what all the features are.

The course is here:
https://gumroad.com/oxfjord#RsgGq

Offline Berube

Re: Problems getting a lacquer effect on wood
« Reply #10 on: May 31, 2020, 11:16:50 pm »
Pump your spec a bit. That map is good for the roughness but too dark (timid) for the spec.

Specular: White is full spec, black is no spec. 
Roughness: White is Matt, Black is Glossy.

Just add a "Color Number" (Level) Between that dark black/white wood map and crunch the white point a bit to brighten the map. 

Hope this helps!

-Berube
www.johnberube.com