Author Topic: New Subscription based KS11 pricing?  (Read 7940 times)

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Offline aemasters

New Subscription based KS11 pricing?
« on: December 13, 2021, 09:12:15 am »
So I received the email offering KS 8 and 9 users to upgrade to KS10 and maintenance and they will get KS11.  Also in that email was the first pricing I have seen for the new subscription based sales model of $99/month paid annually ($1188).
I have KS 10 with maintenance so the upgrade does not affect me, but the pricing for subscription alarmed me.

My question and observation;
Is the subscription sales model going to be the ONLY method of keeping up with KS from 2022 onward? or will both be available?

With a monthly rate of $99, the new subscription will be significantly more expensive.  For example, using the old sales model, If I bought KS at $1995 and paid $400 per year for the next 4 years, my monthly cost over 5 years would be $59.92.  If I bought KS on a Black Friday discount ($1195) the monthly price would be $46.58.

Am I seeing this right?

Offline DerekCicero

Re: New Subscription based KS11 pricing?
« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2021, 02:48:02 pm »
So I received the email offering KS 8 and 9 users to upgrade to KS10 and maintenance and they will get KS11.  Also in that email was the first pricing I have seen for the new subscription based sales model of $99/month paid annually ($1188).
I have KS 10 with maintenance so the upgrade does not affect me, but the pricing for subscription alarmed me.

My question and observation;
Is the subscription sales model going to be the ONLY method of keeping up with KS from 2022 onward? or will both be available?

With a monthly rate of $99, the new subscription will be significantly more expensive.  For example, using the old sales model, If I bought KS at $1995 and paid $400 per year for the next 4 years, my monthly cost over 5 years would be $59.92.  If I bought KS on a Black Friday discount ($1195) the monthly price would be $46.58.

Am I seeing this right?

We won't commit to pricing past next year, but if you have maintenance you can remain on maintenance in 2022. The price of maintenance is going up next year, as we have not raised the prices for KeyShot in over 10 years. For the pricing comparison, it depends on a number of factors to "what is cheaper" (i.e. upgrades) but the Subscription price is a lower initial price point, which has often been requested.

Offline mattjgerard

Re: New Subscription based KS11 pricing?
« Reply #2 on: December 14, 2021, 10:47:04 am »
I think the biggest change here is that people need to realize that if they are on the new subscription method, there is no need for the maintenance to get the new versions every time. The maintenance only supplies direct email and phone support. I know I've had the maintenance for about 5 years now, and I think I used it once to figure out a licensing issue, which I'm pretty sure they would have figured out anyway if I hadn't had it. So, now that you won't need the maintenance to get the new versions, do you really need the email and phone support? If not, then drop it and just pay the subscription, get the new versions as they come out.

Using your 5 year plan, yep you'd be best to stay on the permanent license model. The subscription (at this point) is just an option.

Offline Sid Hatrack

Re: New Subscription based KS11 pricing?
« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2021, 05:10:37 am »
I do not understand the subscription model. Ignoring the issue of maintenance, is Keyshot now like Photoshop where you one cannot purchase a stand alone copy of the software, but is forced to make monthly payments to use it.

Offline mattjgerard

Re: New Subscription based KS11 pricing?
« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2021, 08:45:01 am »
I do not understand the subscription model. Ignoring the issue of maintenance, is Keyshot now like Photoshop where you one cannot purchase a stand alone copy of the software, but is forced to make monthly payments to use it.

They are keeping the permanent stand alone license model for now.

Offline Sid Hatrack

Re: New Subscription based KS11 pricing?
« Reply #5 on: December 16, 2021, 12:38:20 pm »
I do not know what you mean by "for now", but I have this direct from a Keyshot inside sales manager "Once KeyShot 11 is released, no new permanent licenses will be available and new licenses will be annual subscription."

It is too bad it they cannot see their way to offer both subscription and and permanent license. I use SolidEdge and this is what they offer. I for one will not be upgrading to KS11 because of their inflexible policy.

Offline Kuba Grabarczyk

Re: New Subscription based KS11 pricing?
« Reply #6 on: December 17, 2021, 04:13:14 am »
I have a license for Keyshot 10 PRO. Can anyone from Keyshot them refer to the questions below? This is quite important for me:

1) Is purchasing a Maintenance right now (before the end of the year) the only option for me to get the upgrate to permanent Keyshot 11 when it's released?

2) Once I do that, the newest version of Keyshot available in permanent model will be Keyshot 11? The only option to upgrade to Keyshot 12 and other new versions in the future will be switching to subscription model?

Thank you in advance for the answers,
Kuba

Offline DerekCicero

Re: New Subscription based KS11 pricing?
« Reply #7 on: January 19, 2022, 10:03:46 am »
I have a license for Keyshot 10 PRO. Can anyone from Keyshot them refer to the questions below? This is quite important for me:

1) Is purchasing a Maintenance right now (before the end of the year) the only option for me to get the upgrate to permanent Keyshot 11 when it's released?

Yes.  You can still contact sales.

2) Once I do that, the newest version of Keyshot available in permanent model will be Keyshot 11? The only option to upgrade to Keyshot 12 and other new versions in the future will be switching to subscription model?

Correct.

Offline quigley

Re: New Subscription based KS11 pricing?
« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2022, 08:35:36 am »
$1188 paid up front for a 12 month subscription? If that is the plan for existing users who purchased the software at full price, then paid for annual maintenance plans since day 1, then it needs to ne reconsidered.

I totally get subscription models. 3/4 of our sofware is subcription based - Adobe/Microsoft/Accounts/Some rendering, some modelling etc. But here's the thing. If you are introducing subscription to your faithful, fully paid up user base you need to give us more than simply saying "$1188 - take it or leave it". At that price, it more than doubles the cost of maintaining our investment in Keyshot products, and in this environment that is simply not sustainable.

Look at the commercial competition.

Adobe Substance package is less than half that cost.
Same for Chaos with a V-ray subscription.
Then we get into add on packages like Corona or Octane - same story.
Even modellers with rendering options are lower cost.

Listen, the simple fact is this. We like Keyshot. We've used it since it was Hypershot Beta. But it is no longer the only game in town either for realtime rendering or native CAD format reading.

if we are going to be expected to fork out full subscription costs then we will start to phase it out. Simple as that.

Offline DWTK

Re: New Subscription based KS11 pricing?
« Reply #9 on: January 27, 2022, 02:19:04 pm »
$1188 paid up front for a 12 month subscription? If that is the plan for existing users who purchased the software at full price, then paid for annual maintenance plans since day 1, then it needs to ne reconsidered.

I totally get subscription models. 3/4 of our sofware is subcription based - Adobe/Microsoft/Accounts/Some rendering, some modelling etc. But here's the thing. If you are introducing subscription to your faithful, fully paid up user base you need to give us more than simply saying "$1188 - take it or leave it". At that price, it more than doubles the cost of maintaining our investment in Keyshot products, and in this environment that is simply not sustainable.

Look at the commercial competition.

Adobe Substance package is less than half that cost.
Same for Chaos with a V-ray subscription.
Then we get into add on packages like Corona or Octane - same story.
Even modellers with rendering options are lower cost.

Listen, the simple fact is this. We like Keyshot. We've used it since it was Hypershot Beta. But it is no longer the only game in town either for realtime rendering or native CAD format reading.

if we are going to be expected to fork out full subscription costs then we will start to phase it out. Simple as that.

 Very well said.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2022, 06:28:28 pm by DWTK »

Offline ivuzem

Re: New Subscription based KS11 pricing?
« Reply #10 on: January 27, 2022, 09:31:20 pm »
2) Once I do that, the newest version of Keyshot available in permanent model will be Keyshot 11? The only option to upgrade to Keyshot 12 and other new versions in the future will be switching to subscription model?

Correct.

wait. I was lead to believe that the KS11 is going to be subscription based (as per 'Free upgrade details' newsletter from November 21).  So, you're saying we can have KS11 perpetual licence?? Please tell me how.

Offline mattjgerard

Re: New Subscription based KS11 pricing?
« Reply #11 on: January 28, 2022, 07:49:44 am »
The upshot of it all is that they aren't moving this way for no reason, I'm sure they have spent countless hours researching, consulting with their major customers (which admittedly isn't any of us, most likely companies with dozens of user licenses, not one-offs) they have factored in the attrition of loss due to pricing vs higher more stable income for the company with the subscription model from those volume customers. Its a business decision, not a "feel good lets do this because its better for the customer" decision. All businesses large and small need to make those decisions, and they aren't easy nor taken lightly. These forums I would guess represent less than 5% of the user base (most likely MUCH lower) so, humbly stating, our opinion won't matter much of a gnats a&& hair in the big picture. I do truly believe they take stuff we talk about into consideration, but the loss of a few customers from here are easily made up for on the other end of a higher yearly income from a larger user base customer going from the $400 per year maint to the $1000+ a year subscription. The bean counters have their hands in this heavily, as they do in all successful businesses, and sometimes takes turns that don't benefit everyone in the ecosystem.

All that being said, we will be sticking with KS, as the planned expenses are easy for our IT dept to swallow. We have years invested in the KS ecosystem, years and thousands of projects that would become worthless if we moved away from KS, the same pain we are still feeling from moving away from Final Render and 3DS Max going back 10+ years.  We have 2 users, so small potatoes in the big picture. I will say that they should be able to get a hold of a whole platoon of new coders to take KS to the next level with the bump in yearly income. @willgibbons Will Gibbons made his list of of observations in a post a couple weeks ago, and i think he nailed it pretty dead on. The "drag and drop" ease of use is getting harder and harder to claim as a key feature, especially with pretty much every other render engine having third party packs of thousands of prebuilt materials and lighting solutions, so its ALL drag and drop to a certain extent, with other renderers dipping toes into more features for less money, and that's not even considering the network rendering that is free with some other renderers. But, I might go and plop my 2 cents on that thread as well.

Take care everyone, make the decision that's best for you, Luxion will, and we can't really blame them.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2022, 07:53:51 am by mattjgerard »

Offline Will Gibbons

Re: New Subscription based KS11 pricing?
« Reply #12 on: January 28, 2022, 08:46:33 am »
I may not make as much time to post here as I used to, but I will take a moment to chime in.

I share many of Matt's speculations. Though, I'd suspect the active users on this forum are less than 0.5% of active KeyShot users. That number falls even further when considering who's using legitimate licenses.

You know the saying, "What got you here, won't get you there?" Well, when a business takes actions to grow, they often focus on making the simplest changes that will result in the greatest results. Switching to a subscription-based model fights piracy, and creates more predictable cashflow and automates sales and license management to a degree for Luxion.

To me, the biggest potential upside to moving to a subscription model is that Luxion doesn't need to decide on what glossy features they'll put into a release each year in an effort to gain new customers. If they truly move to ongoing releases and do away with the major releases (i.e. KS11, KS12, KS13 and just the name of the year such as KS22.1, KS22.2, KS22.3) then when a feature is added becomes irrelevant. What's important is customer retention and customer satisfaction.

The risk of adding glossy features for a big annual release is rushing something and releasing it in a half-baked manner, then not continuing to develop it because users don't use it because it never worked well in the first place. Then you get a graveyard of abandoned features.

My optimism says an annual subscription gives Luxion the opportunity to grow their team of developers and other roles to allow them to focus on stability, continual improvement and hopefully more competitive features relative to the CGI landscape.

I think if you're concerned about the price, then you're in the wrong field. CGI is expensive. 3D is expensive. The hardware it takes to run this software well is expensive. Servers and render farms are expensive. Software is expensive. Engineering, production, prototyping, shipping, delivering products are all expensive endeavors.

KeyShot may seem expensive compared to some other software tools, but my electricity bill is about $165/mo ($1980/yr) for a small 3 bedroom house with low to moderate energy consumption. That's more expensive than the $1188/yr KeyShot will cost. If you're a hobbyist, sure, KeyShot may feel expensive. But anyone who uses the tool for his or her business, it's a drop in the bucket.

Anyone who's upset about the move to subscription or the price increase, I think is losing sight of the big picture. I do think there's more to be gained as a user from this move, although it may take a few years for us to feel that as Luxion adapts to this change as well.

And for those who threaten to move to another platform, that's fine too. However, I think you'll quickly find it a bit tedious at best to use another render engine with CAD data. KeyShot's ease-of-use and quick workflow from HDRI editor to studios, to working well with lots of CAD applications is not something many other tools excel at.

As Matt pointed out, hobbyists, freelancers and individuals probably don't have a big impact on Luxion's bottom line.

I've no intentions to criticize anyone here who might feel offended or singled out by this post. I just wanted to share what I think personally stands to be gained by moving to a subscription model.

As for the direction the software moves in, who it's marketed to and what features are implemented and how, that's an entirely different conversation.

Understand that those who post regularly here and often with solutions to questions are the 1%. And those users in the 1% (most competent) are going to want features and tools that the 99% of users aren't aware of or interested in. Unfortunately, a business that's trying to grow, does not focus on the 1%. They focus on the 99%. And I say this as a business owner myself. Again, no harsh feelings toward Luxion. It's just a fact that some of us have to accept. The largest user base is who will be listened to the most for better or worse.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2022, 08:52:46 am by Will Gibbons »

Offline quigley

Re: New Subscription based KS11 pricing?
« Reply #13 on: January 28, 2022, 04:10:48 pm »
I think this jumping ship scenario can be resolved very easily by Luxion by retaining a lower subscription cost for existing paid up users on maintenance vs new licenses at the higher rate. I do take issue with the line “CGI is expensive”. Tell me about it.
It is even more expensive when as a small business we have a couple of licenses of SolidWorks/Rhino/Fusion/Adobe Team Creative Cloud/ Office 365 and others. In that scenario-which is common for many original Keyshot users-design agencies-Keyshot is one system in use, not the only system in use.
We are also trying to grow and we cannot justify using software that jumps 3x overhead cost. At that point we change.
I would honestly save paying 3x the cost would be worth it IF there was added value but the simple fact is that for design phase non specialist user (as in not a 100% of time user) rendering Keyshot has not really progressed that much in recent years.
But let’s see what the deal actually is. If it’s reasonable we will stick with it. If it’s not, then we will just increase our use of alternatives we already use like Twinmotion, Inspire Studio or Visualise, and maybe look at bringing in VRay again.
One thing Ive learned over the last 30 years of commercial 3D design software is that software vendors don’t give a damn about users once they reach a certain point (apart from McNeel), so in return we don’t offer any loyalty. It’s all business-both ways.

Offline JuhaL

Re: New Subscription based KS11 pricing?
« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2022, 03:51:35 pm »
I will buy Keyshot february. Is it possible use Keyshot 12 without the subsrcption? Is there maintenance next year?
« Last Edit: January 30, 2022, 03:56:06 pm by JuhaL »