New Subscription based KS11 pricing?

[mattjgerard]

Hahah, sorry guys! took it wrong. Its all good. Yeah, i get a little long winded when I'm waiting for a render to finish

[hve]

Considering the vast array of programs you get with Adobe suite, I think their prices are extremely reasonable.

That’s exactly what Adobe wants you to believe.

I use their apps and several of them and sincerely don't have to complain, it's actually one of the packages I use most so for 49€ without VAT it's a productive package

[Penteon]

So let me summarize. If you're poor or are having trouble making ends meet, you don't belong in 3d.  You're insignificant, only corporate accounts matter.  Make more money peasant. This may suck for you, but it'll be awesome for those of us who can afford it. Decent tl;dr?

If I'm poor (which I have been) and having trouble making ends meet (which I have done) I'm not going to attempt to be a Porsche mechanic either. I'm going to work on cars I can afford the tools for.

When I first went freelance, I had $0. I took out my loan for a crap computer so that I could afford software. I used the built in renderers for C4D until I worked enough to afford Octane and a GPU card. I built my way up. So, cruelly, yes. If you can't afford the cost of doing business, you shouldn't be trying to be in the business.

That super mean thing being realized as "reality sucks sometimes" is followed up with this-

Blender.

100% all inclusive 3d Package. For Free. With Free Support. With Free Tutorials. There are even free render farms to use if you are a student. If you are struggling, guys are always offering their vast systems for rendering. Everything you need to be a successful 3D artist is there. FOR FREE.

Problem is that the UI sucks. And its a steep learning curve. But I can't think of any other industry that supports its userbase better than 3D. Fer crying out loud, Unity, one of the top gaming engines in the world with some of the most advanced real time rendering tech is (guess what)

FREE!!!!!

My kid downloaded it for fun and made a VR game for his Oculus. So, it can be done. I'm a shadetree mechanic. I love wrenching on stuff. If its got a motor, let me have it. But, I have Harbor Freight tools, not SnapOn or Mac. I buy tools at garage sales. On Clearance. I use what I can afford. Now, if I for some reason started to make a living off it, you bet I would upgrade those tools when I could afford to. But no one is going to hand them to me for nothing. Not like the 3D industry does.

So, stop looking at the lack of tools as the limitation. If you can't afford KS, that's great! There is a path for you out there, focus on the path and refining your talents and knowledge, in the end that's what makes the difference. The software is just a tool to get the end result.

You're missing the point entirely, and I just don't agree with you, and that's fine.  We don't have to agree.  This isn't about choosing to be a Porsche mechanic, it's about a tool -- currently being used -- undergoing a massive price increase.  Whether you or anyone else thinks that's justified or not is your business.  It's an open forum and if others are opposed to the price increase, they have as much right as anyone else to speak their minds about it. Or is your post here essentially a vote for the idea that people opposed to this price hike should A) be happy about it and B) remain silent?

If you don't like me speaking out about Gibbon's "shut up and take the price increase" rant, I guess that's a sad day for you.  Everything in my post was taken from the sentiments HE expressed, I just chose to sidestep the euphemistic language.  If the sentiments in my tl;dr are ones you find offensive or disagreeable, take it up with Will -- they're his implications and his statements.  I challenge you to find an idea he didn't express or imply which I included in my tl;dr.

Gibbon is established (maybe? to whatever extent he actually is established in this industry, I don't know whether he's scraping by or what) but clearly he weighs in on this change on the side of a well-to-do corporation.  Fine, good for him.  There are other people, however, trying to make it in the 3d space, who aren't rich, and who aren't established, and I speak on the side of those people.  If you don't like that, I honestly don't care.  You'll excuse me if I don't buy into the idea that there's one objectively correct perspective on this price hike.

[Penteon]

So let me summarize. If you're poor or are having trouble making ends meet, you don't belong in 3d.  You're insignificant, only corporate accounts matter.  Make more money peasant. This may suck for you, but it'll be awesome for those of us who can afford it. Decent tl;dr?

If I'm poor (which I have been) and having trouble making ends meet (which I have done) I'm not going to attempt to be a Porsche mechanic either. I'm going to work on cars I can afford the tools for.

When I first went freelance, I had $0. I took out my loan for a crap computer so that I could afford software. I used the built in renderers for C4D until I worked enough to afford Octane and a GPU card. I built my way up. So, cruelly, yes. If you can't afford the cost of doing business, you shouldn't be trying to be in the business.

That super mean thing being realized as "reality sucks sometimes" is followed up with this-

Blender.

100% all inclusive 3d Package. For Free. With Free Support. With Free Tutorials. There are even free render farms to use if you are a student. If you are struggling, guys are always offering their vast systems for rendering. Everything you need to be a successful 3D artist is there. FOR FREE.

Problem is that the UI sucks. And its a steep learning curve. But I can't think of any other industry that supports its userbase better than 3D. Fer crying out loud, Unity, one of the top gaming engines in the world with some of the most advanced real time rendering tech is (guess what)

FREE!!!!!

My kid downloaded it for fun and made a VR game for his Oculus. So, it can be done. I'm a shadetree mechanic. I love wrenching on stuff. If its got a motor, let me have it. But, I have Harbor Freight tools, not SnapOn or Mac. I buy tools at garage sales. On Clearance. I use what I can afford. Now, if I for some reason started to make a living off it, you bet I would upgrade those tools when I could afford to. But no one is going to hand them to me for nothing. Not like the 3D industry does.

So, stop looking at the lack of tools as the limitation. If you can't afford KS, that's great! There is a path for you out there, focus on the path and refining your talents and knowledge, in the end that's what makes the difference. The software is just a tool to get the end result.

I admire your patience... 

Someone glomming on to an exchange they're in no way required to participate in doesn't require any more patience than anyone else who decided to participate.  I think you're confused.

[Penteon]

I will buy Keyshot february. Is it possible use Keyshot 12 without the subsrcption? Is there maintenance next year?

No.  Subscriptions are required going forward on all new purchases. Those who have the current non-subscription version can get one more year at a discounted price.  After that year elapses, they'll be moved over into the subscription model.

[mattjgerard]

I'm really sorry you are getting so wound up about this, Penteon. Its not whether I agree with anyone or not, I was posting my own opinion (as you did) with real life experieince to back it up. If I'm using a software, and they increase the price, I can either accept it and figure out how to deal with it (raise my rates, cut other expenses) and continue doing business as is, or I can figure out how to do business a different way, and I gave many examples on how that could be done. While it may not seem "fair" it is the way Luxion is choosing to move forward and there really isn't anything to do about it. There are members that used to be on here that aren't anymore because they found better cheaper faster solutions for what they were trying to do, and I wish them all the best. If I was to go freelance again, I know for sure that I would NOT be able afford KS, and so rather than complain and shake my fist at the world, I'd get on with trying to figure out how I was going to keep doing business. They have zero obligation to price their products at what you (we) think they should. We have an obligation to keep our eyes open to other options to make sure we are getting the best value for our dollar. If KS stopped fulfilling the needs of my work, you can be sure I'd be looking elsewhere for a solution. Its that simple, and nothing to get emotional over. Its business.

You seem to be looking for an argument in making petulent comments about a subjective subject, and insulting anyone that you don't feel is contributing to what you view is appropriate to the conversation, which in my view is the sad part. If you are so pissed at Luxion for the subscription model, then write to them directly. Better yet, call them. Have a conversation. They value constructive feedback. They do respond and consider things we the customers bring up. Maybe they just need one more (reasonable) voice telling them to have some sort of independent artist pricing model, or some other way.

When adobe went subscription, I had a full CS license that I paid for myself, and was paying for updates. I didn't want the ongoing cost just to maybe use the features that they were releasing, and so I dropped it. I went with other software packages that in the end fit my needs better. And cheaper.

[Penteon]

I'm really sorry you are getting so wound up about this, Penteon. Its not whether I agree with anyone or not, I was posting my own opinion (as you did) with real life experieince to back it up. If I'm using a software, and they increase the price, I can either accept it and figure out how to deal with it (raise my rates, cut other expenses) and continue doing business as is, or I can figure out how to do business a different way, and I gave many examples on how that could be done. While it may not seem "fair" it is the way Luxion is choosing to move forward and there really isn't anything to do about it. There are members that used to be on here that aren't anymore because they found better cheaper faster solutions for what they were trying to do, and I wish them all the best. If I was to go freelance again, I know for sure that I would NOT be able afford KS, and so rather than complain and shake my fist at the world, I'd get on with trying to figure out how I was going to keep doing business. They have zero obligation to price their products at what you (we) think they should. We have an obligation to keep our eyes open to other options to make sure we are getting the best value for our dollar. If KS stopped fulfilling the needs of my work, you can be sure I'd be looking elsewhere for a solution. Its that simple, and nothing to get emotional over. Its business.

You seem to be looking for an argument in making petulent comments about a subjective subject, and insulting anyone that you don't feel is contributing to what you view is appropriate to the conversation, which in my view is the sad part. If you are so pissed at Luxion for the subscription model, then write to them directly. Better yet, call them. Have a conversation. They value constructive feedback. They do respond and consider things we the customers bring up. Maybe they just need one more (reasonable) voice telling them to have some sort of independent artist pricing model, or some other way.

When adobe went subscription, I had a full CS license that I paid for myself, and was paying for updates. I didn't want the ongoing cost just to maybe use the features that they were releasing, and so I dropped it. I went with other software packages that in the end fit my needs better. And cheaper.

Nice try Sigmund Freud, but you can stop with the arm chair psychoanalysis.  I'm not wound up, I was replying to Gibbons' statements in which he was rabidly cheerleading while at the same time putting down people who can't afford this price hike.  Now, he can cheerlead for them all he wants, it's his life, but as for the rest of his statements they were reprehensible in my opinion and so I summed up his statements without all the euphemism to shine a light on the essence of what he was saying.

And no you weren't really posting your opinion on this price hike, you were inserting yourself into a reply I made about Gibbons' choice of words, so it seems you're confused.  Once again, and it seems like I need to state this more than once for you, I didn't insult anyone, I summed up Gibbons' own words.  If you have a problem with those ideas, take it up with Gibbons.  And I challenge you to find one statement in my td;lr that has no relationship to Gibbons' statements or implications. 

Just to be clear, I don't have a dog in this fight.  I'm a hobbyist, so moving to the new subscription model is not a must for me.  I simply won't do it.  But I have friends who are artists, and they're talented and trying to make it in this meatgrinder of an industry, and they're already paying an arm and a leg for a bunch of other subscriptions.  And slowly but surely company after company is moving to a subscription model, principally because they've got the necessary leverage over their customer base to pull it off.  I'm not one of those among you who's jumping up and down cheering these changes, and myself and others don't have to be.  You do you.

You can argue all day long on behalf of multi-million/billion dollar companies, that's your right.  I'm offering my opinion on the side of artists and people trying to make it in this industry.  Pro-tip: you can stop trying to convince me to see things your way.  In case you haven't noticed, we disagree.

[mattjgerard]

I don't really care if we disagree, and I'm not trying to convince anyone that going subscription is right. I fought against adobe when they did it, I signed many petitions, wrote to the company many times to voice my thoughts on why it would be a bad idea. I don't like subscriptions. I hate the idea that right now I have hundreds if not thousands of files that I can't open at home because I don't have a CC subscription. Thankfully I can use my work account, but there might be a time I won't have it. Then I'm screwed.

What I'm trying to say, and you keep ignoring, is that the situation is what it is, you complaining about it on a forum isn't going to change anything other than virtue signalling that you are standing up for the little guy. Well, guess what? The little guys are just fine, they don't need you cheerleading for them. If your friends are in this meatgrinder of an industry, then they already know how cutthroat it can be, and if they want to stay in it, they will find a way. Many others have an are super successful.

I'm not defending anyone for going subscription, or for being mad about it. I'm just saying getting all emotionally pissed about it doesn't fix the problem. Your language isn't too professional either, so you might want to watch that. I'm empathetic to those out there struggling, we have all been there, we have all had to start over. Will Gibbons has been a very valuable resource in this community, and is now and has been freelance for a while. I don't know him personally, but he has always been most professional and helpful to those that are here to learn, including me. He has been rightfully critical of Luxion when it has been warranted as well. So, take it for what its worth. No one is being disparaging about being financially strapped, but the reality is that if you can't afford it, you have to either find something else to do or a different way to do it. There are fortune 500 companies and huge production houses that use blender regularly.

I hope your day goes well, and I urge you to contact Luxion directly with your thoughts, they do actually listen and log customer complaints and praises.

[Penteon]

I don't really care if we disagree, and I'm not trying to convince anyone that going subscription is right. I fought against adobe when they did it, I signed many petitions, wrote to the company many times to voice my thoughts on why it would be a bad idea. I don't like subscriptions. I hate the idea that right now I have hundreds if not thousands of files that I can't open at home because I don't have a CC subscription. Thankfully I can use my work account, but there might be a time I won't have it. Then I'm screwed.

What I'm trying to say, and you keep ignoring, is that the situation is what it is, you complaining about it on a forum isn't going to change anything other than virtue signalling that you are standing up for the little guy. Well, guess what? The little guys are just fine, they don't need you cheerleading for them. If your friends are in this meatgrinder of an industry, then they already know how cutthroat it can be, and if they want to stay in it, they will find a way. Many others have an are super successful.

I'm not defending anyone for going subscription, or for being mad about it. I'm just saying getting all emotionally pissed about it doesn't fix the problem. Your language isn't too professional either, so you might want to watch that. I'm empathetic to those out there struggling, we have all been there, we have all had to start over. Will Gibbons has been a very valuable resource in this community, and is now and has been freelance for a while. I don't know him personally, but he has always been most professional and helpful to those that are here to learn, including me. He has been rightfully critical of Luxion when it has been warranted as well. So, take it for what its worth. No one is being disparaging about being financially strapped, but the reality is that if you can't afford it, you have to either find something else to do or a different way to do it. There are fortune 500 companies and huge production houses that use blender regularly.

I hope your day goes well, and I urge you to contact Luxion directly with your thoughts, they do actually listen and log customer complaints and praises.

Well I appreciate the well wishes, and let's end this on a pleasant note.  We obviously have some points of disagreement, but I am generally much more amenable to your views on this than Gibbons'.  His statements came across as very elitist and condescending to me, and I don't know the guy from Adam and have no past history with him.  I do know that he's likely to be better off and more established than many of the people facing this price hike, which would partially explain his views. 

You see a continuing consolidation of power and products and influence, that in general is very troubling to me, and it always strikes me as odd and wrongheaded when this consolidation is applauded.  I just can't get my head around it.  There are fewer and fewer alternatives because the cost and sophistication of getting into any tech sphere dominated by huge existing companies gets more and more difficult, and you're just going to see companies being able to do and charge whatever they want. 

Before there was Google, there were two kids in a college dorm who were able to write its code.  Hell, now even Microsoft can't compete with them.  And you see this same thing happening in every sector of every industry, where the barriers to entry are just so high that the leverage that existing players have is insurmountable.  For me, this is more than just virtue signaling, I see it as a real threat, and as part of a trend that will only worsen over time.

Anyway, like I said, let's end this on a positive note.  Message received.  Take care.