I'm posting this in the 'Bugs and Issues' section because I can't imagine it's deliberate.
Images in the 'realtime' window on Keyshot v7 are much softer than in Keyshot v6.
In fact they look like they have had a large amount of 'bloom' or a small amount of 'blur' applied by default. The image from KS6 looks slightly out of focus to me.
Consider these two very similar images from the realtime windows in both KS6 and KS7. The one from KS6 looks much sharper.
They both have the 'Product' lighting preset applied and the same lighting environment. 'Image effects' and 'Lens effects' are OFF in both cases.
I can't think of any other setting that might be causing it.
I notice the 'Product' lighting preset settings for KS6 and KS7 are, in fact, slightly different, as follows:
KS6 KS7
Self shadows ON Self shadows ON
Global illumination ON Global illumination ON
Shadow quality 1 Shadow quality 3
Ray bounces 10 Ray bounces 14
Indirect bounces 1 N/A
Ground illumination OFF Ground illumination ON
For the purposes of the comparison I turned Ground illumination ON in KS6.
Now, I much prefer the image from the KS6 realtime window. If I want to apply bloom or DOF or whatever I'd like to do it myself - I want the basic image to be 'unprocessed' and sharp.
Can someone from Keyshot tell me what's changed and why. There must be something different going on here with the rendering engine, I think.
I've attached an image from KS6 and KS7 and a sort of 'side-by-side' comparison. The differences can be clearly seen in the highlighted areas (and elsewhere).
If this can't be fixed I might well choose to remain on KS6.
Many thanks.
I'm a little disappointed that Keyshot haven't commented even to acknowledge the issue or tell me I'm wrong ;)
have you tried emailing support@luxion.com? That is the most direct way to get individual assistance.
This is strange. I am not seeing this with my scenes on my own machines. ???
Let's get to the bottom of this.
It would be great if you could share the scene with us. So that we can check if the issue is maybe scene-related.
You can share via WeTransfer (https://keyshot.wetransfer.com/). Send to dries at luxion dot com.
Dries
Quote from: DriesV on August 17, 2017, 12:47:09 PM
This is strange. I am not seeing this with my scenes on my own machines. ???
Let's get to the bottom of this.
It would be great if you could share the scene with us. So that we can check if the issue is maybe scene-related.
You can share via WeTransfer (https://keyshot.wetransfer.com/). Send to dries at luxion dot com.
Dries
Thank you. I'll open the model in both KS6 and KS7 and save a KSP package from each along with a screen shot(s).
I haven't noticed this myself during the beta testing, but saw someone post on facebook about is as well.
Seems not to be a single incident.
Hope it'll be an easy fix for you!
Esben, I'd like to read that. Could you pm me the link please?
Quote from: jhiker on August 18, 2017, 11:46:52 AM
Esben, I'd like to read that. Could you pm me the link please?
Can't make a direct link, but if you go here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/keyshot/ and search for 'Bukhari Torro' (in the left sidebar), it is the post from 9 August at 05:34
Let me know if you find it.
Might it be a texture related issue ? the bloom seems to be in areas where label textures are - unless of course it's geo and not labels.
Just my two cents...
Quote from: Esben Oxholm on August 18, 2017, 12:01:05 PM
Quote from: jhiker on August 18, 2017, 11:46:52 AM
Esben, I'd like to read that. Could you pm me the link please?
Can't make a direct link, but if you go here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/keyshot/ and search for 'Bukhari Torro' (in the left sidebar), it is the post from 9 August at 05:34
Let me know if you find it.
Got it! Seems like a couple of people have noticed this. I sent a couple of scenes to Keyshot and they have been very helpful. They are investigating.
I think I'll change my name to Claude Rains...
Quote from: Despot on August 19, 2017, 02:16:04 PM
I think I'll change my name to Claude Rains...
Sorry - didn't see you there...
Yes, we are also noticing the KS7 realtime view is lower quality (jagged edges and softer labels. Also we are seeing that the overall materials in our scene are more contrasty. Even the same HDZ background is producing different reflections with the exact same settings. I have a support email I'm still waiting on.
Quote from: adamwade on August 21, 2017, 03:23:46 PM
Even the same HDZ background is producing different reflections with the exact same settings. I have a support email I'm still waiting on.
Are you comparing KS6 with KS7 as I am?
Keep us posted....
jhiker,
I too have had a problem with images not as sharp as version 6. Support gave me a link to a newer version of 7 which helped quite a bit but they're still not up to version 6 quality...
Hi all,
What resolutions are you guys running the realtime view in (resolution in Image tab)?
Dries
We have produced over 40,000 images for our website and all of them have been locked at a fixed image of 1200 x 1200 in the image resolution tab. Two images attached, exact same imported .stp file, same Windows10 64bit machine, same output settings, one labeled v6 the other v7. The version 6 is sharper. The new version 7.0.448 that support gave me was a definite improvement but still not to the version 6 level.
Yes 'Furniture Guy', that's the same effect I'm getting.
Here are a couple of images, one from KS6 and one from KS7 using the 'camera benchmark' file that comes with Keyshot.
The image size window is approximately the same.
The environment is the same, the lighting is the same - shadow quality/bounces/global illumination/ground illumination, etc.
To my eyes the KS6 image is sharper with a lot more 'pop'.
I haven't changed any of the materials. See the front ring on the lens - and the little panel with the KEYSHOT logo on it - that material is 'Chrome Dark' (no textures applied) and the roughness setting is 0.1 but it looks quite different in the two KS versions. Why are there no reflections on that material in the KS7 image?
The ring behind the front ring is 'Chrome Dark' with a roughness of 0.15 - they look almost the same in KS7 but quite different in KS6.
Also, I'm finding KS7 much slower to res-up in the realtime window than KS6.
Incidentally, if I change the 'Chrome Dark' roughness value of the front ring in KS7 to 0.01 rather than 0.1 it more closely resembles the material in KS6 (with a roughness of 0.1).
The reflections still aren't the same though.
The roughness difference is interesting.
KeyShot 7 is producing the correct result in this case though. A roughness of 0.1 is supposed to look rough, not shiny as in KeyShot 6.
Previous versions of KeyShot do not correctly initialize the roughness values for those materials in this particular scene. Pressing enter in the roughness input in KeyShot 6 will turn the surface rough as well.
Dries
I just downloaded the latest version 7.0.456 and opened the same reference image I used before and the sharpness difference is now negligible if there's even a difference at all...
THANKS!
I wonder what's changed?
Are you finding a scene takes longer to res-up?
jhiker,
I certainly don't know what's changed. I also haven't noticed any significant increase or decrease in res-up time.
I'm still not comfortable enough with it to commit to version 7 yet...
I'm having the same problem, suddenly I cannot create crisp images like I used to in Keyshot6, like there is a blur filter applied to it. They look lower quality. Hopefully the update will fix my problem too.
Quote from: GS3D on August 29, 2017, 04:05:08 PM
I'm having the same problem, suddenly I cannot create crisp images like I used to in Keyshot6, like there is a blur filter applied to it. They look lower quality. Hopefully the update will fix my problem too.
Exactly. I am now running 7.0.456 and, as far as I can see the problem is still there.
I am currently running a comparison and will post some pictures later.
Oh, and it IS definitely much, much slower to res-up in the realtime window.
We identified the issue and have a fix coming shortly.
Currently running build 7.0.456
I think the default scene/lighting settings may need some attention too. Here's the same scene in KS6 and KS7 in the realtime window after being left for about 6 hrs.
Apart from the sharpness issue the KS7 lacks shadows and the components look like they're floating above the ground. Why is 'Ground Illumination' on by default in KS7 - it wasn't in KS6 and I think it's made things worse. The KS7 scene seems to lack contrast and everything appears a bit brighter.
Look at the white plastic (PTFE) and glass assembly at bottom-left of the scene - I think you'll agree it looks much better in KS6. There are many other examples in that scene.
I just can't risk moving to KS7 right now.
Look at the settings in the lighting tab. Ground Illumination is enabled when selecting "Product" under lighting preset.
Quote from: thomasteger on August 30, 2017, 08:14:29 AM
Look at the settings in the lighting tab. Ground Illumination is enabled when selecting "Product" under lighting preset.
Yes, I know that - and that's my point..
Why on earth make it ON by default in KS7 'Product' lighting when it was 'OFF' by default in KS6 'Product' lighting?
It's just made things worse....
Thomas - my scene is made up of my company's products - it therefore seems reasonable to choose the 'Product' lighting preset as I often do in KS6.
Which of the two above scenes would you say looks the best, the first one or the second one?
I agree it should keep the settings from your KeyShot 6 scene. We will look into this.
As far as "what looks best" I'd say the image in KeyShot 7 does because it looks more realistic as far as the ground goes. But as I said, your settings shouldn't change from one release to another.
But there are no shadows on the ground in the Keyshot 7 scene. I'm surprised you think it looks more realistic.
Some of the GUI improvements in KS7 are fantastic but the basic rendering doesn't seem as good.
Is 'ground illumination' supposed to default to 'ON' in 'product' lighting in KS7?
Is the increased render time due to increased shadow quality and/or increased ray bounces in the 'product' lighting environment in KS7?
Can you suggest any other reasons why it takes longer to render a scene?
Thanks for taking the time to reply. I love Keyshot and I want to see it keep improving.
Hi Jeff,
Can you share that KeyShot 6 scene with us?
The difference between KeyShot 6 and 7 seems quite dramatic. I am also wondering why the shadows are that much subdued in KeyShot 7.
Would like to check it out.
Dries
Thanks Dries. I think it's something to do with 'ground illumination' defaulting to 'ON' in the KS7 product lighting preset - maybe combined with other changes 'behind the scenes'. I dunno, just guessing - but you're right there's dramatic difference.
I'll send the file tomorrow via 'Wetransfer' - it's a big scene!
Quote from: thomasteger on August 30, 2017, 07:29:22 AM
We identified the issue and have a fix coming shortly.
Do you have a guesstimation on 'Shortly'?
Furniture_Guy
Hopefully by next week if all goes well.
If you want to test let me know and I'd be happy to set you up with the current build that we are testing and give out to customers to test to verify the fixes.
Send an e-mail to thomas@luxion.com.
Hi Jeff,
After having looked at the scene (thank you for sending it!), I have to agree with Thomas that the rendering with the Product preset in KeyShot 7 is more realistic.
The shadows are in line with what I would expect from the HDRI you are using.
Ground Illumination has been turned ON for the Product preset in KeyShot 7, because it produces more realistic results.
The differences in performance you are seeing between KS6 and KS7 are indeed due to the increased quality settings for the Product preset in KS7.
However, performance should be at least the same when opening an old KS6 scene in KS7. In that case, the exact same Lighting settings will be used.
Dries
You can always add a Custom preset with the settings from KeyShot 6 if you prefer those.
Dries
Thanks for looking at this - much appreciated.
Quote from: thomasteger on August 30, 2017, 07:29:22 AM
We identified the issue and have a fix coming shortly.
How are we progressing on the fix?
Furniture_Guy
It is done, but not released. You can get early access if you want by contacting support@luxion.com.
Quote from: thomasteger on September 12, 2017, 05:43:25 PM
It is done, but not released. You can get early access if you want by contacting support@luxion.com.
Looks like you guys nailed it. Images are sharp and the screen refresh is FAST. Many thanks! I'm officially switching over to 7...
Furniture_Guy
Awesome - thanks for the quick reply and confirmation. Official release of 7.1 is any now.
Quote from: Furniture_Guy on September 13, 2017, 11:04:35 AM
Quote from: thomasteger on September 12, 2017, 05:43:25 PM
It is done, but not released. You can get early access if you want by contacting support@luxion.com.
Looks like you guys nailed it. Images are sharp and the screen refresh is FAST. Many thanks! I'm officially switching over to 7...
Furniture_Guy
Hate to be a pooper but I'm still seeing 'soft' images in the realtime window with KS7.
I'm running v7.1.31
My frame rate is about 30fps with the particular scene I'm working on now, could that be anything to do with it?
To be fair, it looks better when it's rendered.. :)
I receive only .stp files from my engineering department so I can't speak for other formats but it seems to be a bit soft / blurry after importing but as soon as I give it a material it appears as it should...
Furniture_Guy