Keyshot Blues

[Paul Lang]

 I have been using Keyshot since version 6 almost 2 years now. Keyshot has been a really great tool in day to day workflow, Its interface is very straight forward and easy to use, it has one of the best material editors out there. Recently I have been really struggling as our needs are quickly out growing the capability of Keyshot not to mention the bugs and lack of features that less expensive renders have like Maxwell, Octane, Thea, Indigo just to mention a few and there all less expensive than Keyshot... Keyshot is still the easiest to use.

I upgraded to Keyshot 7 when it was released, I was really hoping that a few important items would have been addressed and was pretty disappointed to buy a full priced version as there is no upgrade option. With such a short list of feature upgrades, pretty pathetic actually for the price I was pretty disappointed. The biggest one is not updating Keyshot's measurement/units methodology, what is the deal? Keyshot has to be the only graphics computer program on the planet that doesn't allow you to enter a specific numerical value for the size of an object/geometry. i.e  make said object 12"X12"X6". There is no reason to not have this ability and so many reasons it is essential.

Other issues:

Importing
1. Setting scene units prior to import always defaults back to what it was once you click import. i.e.  Default, Meters - change to feet - model created using feet -  import - keyshot defaults back to meters???
2. Importing an object that may have a different units of measurement into an existing scene resizes the environment.
3. No matter what orientation I choose, models always come in upside down or sideways. Not a big deal but annoying

Lighting
1. Saving a custom lighting present disappears when you save and close your scene. Next time you open that scene the custom lighting preset you saved is no longer there, why?
2. Interior mode generates banding and harsh block shadows on interior scenes. I tried all lighting, material and output options and nothing helps. Its much slower to render but always have to  start with product mode or basic and make own custom lighting adjustment i.e ray bounces, global illumination etc. to replicate interior mode and gives much smoother shadows and light casting.
3. Constant battle with Fire flies with EIS lights on interior scenes.
4. Excessive noise on metals in interior scenes.
5. Would be great to have volumetric lighting/atmosphere

Texturing:
Not really a bug but Keyshot seems to be the only render out there that doesn't support displacement mapping
Fur & Hair would really bring it to the next level as most renders have this feature now and is very usefull.

Instancing:
The pattern tool is ok for some things but is very primitive and really slows things down if you have too may instances
Need to add control for x y or z rotation randomization for when you don't want a repetitive pattern.
Assigning/attach instances to an object/mesh
Collision control

Snap to objects.
The ability to snap to a specific objects would really be a time saver.

Adding model libraries:
Spending anywhere from 20min to an hour texturing an model and being able to save it to a model library for easy drag and drop in other scenes would save a lot of headache.

Shortcuts.
Delete: the ability to turn off the "Are you sure you want to delete" window
Duplicate: Need a keyboard short cut for this.

Real Photography camera settings.
Shutter speed, Aperture, ISO etc.

Keyshot has the potential to be one of the best standalone renders on the market. Adding features as mentioned above in my opinion would put it ahead of most other standalone renders in the simple fact that Keyshots GUI and material editor are the most simple and straight forward I have seen. Perhaps a Keyshot Pro Elite version.

I will keep on using Keyshot 7 for my more simple less complicated work but unfortunately I need to move on to another render with the features to accommodate our current demands.

Paul

[INNEO_MWo]

I'm sorry to read your blues. I am happy since hyperShot times with this software.
And some of the issues should be solved already. The custom lighting settings are saved in the keyshot7*.xml. So that could be some restriction with permissions, I guess.

The model library thing can be handled easily. Just create a scene with all definitions like textures etc. Then save the hip in a library folder. You can drag from the library or finder into the current scene. If you have less files, you can save them into the models folder (resource path) then you'll found them in the add geometry list.

And hopefully we will get displacement maps in future releases. Till then you can use free blender, bake the geometry and export the fbx files that can be imported in the KS scene.


Hope you'll find your way out of the blues. This great community will help you.


Cheers
Marco

[NM-92]

The model library thing can be handled easily. Just create a scene with all definitions like textures etc. Then save the hip in a library folder. You can drag from the library or finder into the current scene. If you have less files, you can save them into the models folder (resource path) then you'll found them in the add geometry list.

This is kind of a partial solution. Some models require fine tuning with the positions and it's just not practical to add them directly in KS. Mostly on machinery and CAD files. And, i believe you also loose live sync with this method (could be wrong). So, i agree with the request of some kind of "snap to..." model, geometry, faces, etc. at the moment of adding something to the scene. Not a weak point in the software, but certainly a great possibility for improvement.

[DriesV]

Hi Paul,

...
pretty disappointed to buy a full priced version as there is no upgrade option. With such a short list of feature upgrades, pretty pathetic actually for the price I was pretty disappointed.
...

That doesn't sound right. We do offer upgrades, with lower than full price, from KeyShot 6 to 7.

...
The biggest one is not updating Keyshot's measurement/units methodology, what is the deal? Keyshot has to be the only graphics computer program on the planet that doesn't allow you to enter a specific numerical value for the size of an object/geometry. i.e  make said object 12"X12"X6". There is no reason to not have this ability and so many reasons it is essential.
...

The unit system actually received a lot of attention for KeyShot 7. All unit-aware properties in materials, textures, environments etc. have been updated to show and respect Scene Units.
Entering a size for an object is tricky, as the size is a function of scale. Can you provide an example of a 3D application (modeling or rendering tool) where you can do this?

I will try to provide input on your other points later.
Thank you for the feedback!

Dries

[DMerz III]

Just to piggyback onto the thread,

I too have experienced Issue #2 on the Importing changing the environment. It doesn't seem to be a hard change, but in my experience, it is as if the environment shrinks. Going to the environment tab and toggling the lock seems to reset everything with no harm done, but it does get annoying after a while that the bug keeps happening everytime I import. I keep forgetting to report it because it happens, and I fix it immediately so I can continue working, and forget to address it.

[mattjgerard]

The unit system actually received a lot of attention for KeyShot 7. All unit-aware properties in materials, textures, environments etc. have been updated to show and respect Scene Units.
Entering a size for an object is tricky, as the size is a function of scale. Can you provide an example of a 3D application (modeling or rendering tool) where you can do this?

I will try to provide input on your other points later.
Thank you for the feedback!

Dries

Cinema 4D you can enter in actual size or scale (relative or absolute) in the Attributes tab. This is true for parametric objects created inside C4D or for polygonal models that are imported. Totally unsure how this is handled on the back end, or how they relate it to scale. I do agree that the scaling number system in KS is confusing, as if I type in a scale of the x axis, it will rejigger the numbers of the y and z to keep the x at 1. The corrolation between the  seperate x/y/z scaling and the "Scale" Slider is unpredictable, and when trying to apply scaling to seperate objects, looses it relativity to other objects when the numbers "reduce" themselves.

Create 2 boxes, put them side by side. Scale the x of one box to .25, and the box visually is scaled correctly, but the XYZ numbers are now 1,4,4 with the main scale slider jumps to .25. But that box isn't 4 times bigger than the other one in the y and z axis visually, and its not the same size in the x direction, as the x scale of that cube would tell me.

The scaling just looses all relativity to itself and other objects, resetting all of them to 1 does seem to bring them all back into line. I can understand vaguely the relationship the numbers are trying to convey but its really twisting my brain to figure it out. Just seems more complicated than it needs to be for the user. But again, this is me on the pretty side of the software not seeing the hugely intricate code side of the it and the internal workings that make this whole thing work

[cjwidd]

The fireflies...

[Josh3D]

Hi Paul. Thanks for your comments. We love getting this kind of feedback and can ensure you we're taking it seriously. First, I just want to reinforce that we're focused on making KeyShot the fastest, most capable rendering software there is. In the same day, we can hear multiple time that 'KeyShot has too much' and 'KeyShot has too little'. As you can imagine, it's a bit of a balance - our goal is to make sure the needs of all KeyShot users are met while keeping the approach simple, the tools powerful and the result unmatched. I hope that is evident.

To your feature requests, a lot of the features you mention are on the short list for KeyShot. We've expanded our dev team, streamlined the dev process, and we've got some great developments in the pipeline for KeyShot 8. To your issues, we have a 7.2 update coming soon that should address some issues you point out. Other items we will have to check to see if they are reproducible. If you have one that keeps happening, definitely send it in to support@luxion.com with an example scene if possible.

Thanks  again, Paul. Greatly appreciated!

[Matheron]

+1
for the "volumetric lighting/atmosphere" request.

Preferably as a non-uniform procedural volumetric fog material that can be applied to any 3d shape.

[Paul Lang]

Thanks for all the replies. Great! notes. I've been out of town so haven't had a chance to look at these.  I'll see if I can make comments on some of these.

1. Custom light settings - not a permission thing, custom light settings simple just doesn't get save with the .bip when you close and reopen.

2. Model library - saving individual .bip files to an assets directory is what I am doing now, however it also saves the entire scene information an can cause issues importing into new
scenes. What I am talking about is a similar function to saving new custom textures to your materials library. So select model, Save to library... Having key shot do if for you.

3. Upgrade Price? so why did I pay full price going from key shot 6 -7 I wasn't given an option for upgrade?

4. Keyshot Measurement. I have brought this up in a previous thread and not sure why this is such an argument. Just pick any another modelling/rendering program not the planet and they all have the ability to select any object/mesh that is either imported or created and has the ability to give it specific dimensions. Yes Keyshot did do some updating to the units but in display only,  you tell me exactly what size an object is but there is no way to accurately enter exactly what size you want the object to be. I get that Size is a function of Scale however you still need a field that allows you to enter i.e  X: 6.5"  Y: 3" Z: 4.25" and have the Scale slider/display auto adjust to your inputs. Under Properties/Size you already tell us actual size, What if you just made that an active editable field.

5. Regarding Keyshot has too much or too little. Simple solution, don't use the features you don't need or use. Isn't that the point/differenct between the HD and Pro versions, one has more features/functions than the other. Keyshot is awesome and yes it is fast and very easy to use, it's my favourite rendering program for many reasons and that is just my point.
With just a few additions as I mentioned or coming out with an Elite Version I would not have to use another render to accommodated our studios needs. I understand that Keyshot started off as, basically a product based render but users will always push the most out of a program and growth is necessary. There is still a large user base out there with Virtual photography on the rise, Photographers/Image makers like myself are looking for solutions. I own and operate The Orange Apple Creative Imagery in Vancouver Canada. We produce imagery for the advertising community. As we have been looking for a solution to bring the CG element in studio instead of outsourcing Keyshot's was recommended by a colleague It was great! as it was a very simple and was quick to integrate into our workflow. However Keyshot was not ideal for all projects do to limitations in the program. Keyshots render quality is up there with Maxwell, Corona, V-Ray, Octane but what Keyshot has over these is easy of use. We are currently exploring Maxwell and Thea Render and damm, I just wish Keyshot had some of there features.