Author Topic: Management in Keyshot  (Read 596 times)

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Offline kangnguyen

Management in Keyshot
« on: January 07, 2020, 08:13:42 pm »
Dear Keyshot users and Dear Keyshot-team,
just to bring all colour relevant things together:
what's the latest status of colour-management of Keyshot?
There are two areas to look at:
1) The Preview live render window
=>  does it already support windows / system wide colour management (from monitor calibration)?
2) The fully rendered exported images:
2 a) is there a possibility to embed the actual colour profile in the image file directly and / or at least to put a hint in the meta information of the image file during export?
2 b) is there a possibility to to export images directly with other colour-spaces (mainly adobergb)?
All these 3 points would make post processing and working with professional external media workers much easier...
Many thanks on any update on this topic !!

Online Eugen Fetsch

Re: Management in Keyshot
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2020, 12:55:07 am »
This is a very hot topic for me too. Would be great to hear a statement on this. 

Offline Furniture_Guy

Re: Management in Keyshot
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2020, 11:27:08 am »
FYI:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOyQVcQW2bw

https://www.keyshot.com/forum/index.php?topic=22782.0

https://www.keyshot.com/forum/index.php?topic=21346.0

https://luxion.atlassian.net/wiki/spaces/K7M/pages/40215861/Color+Management

So, if you output from KeyShot it will be in the sRGB Color Space but will NOT be assigned that space. To get an accurate color CONVERSION to another space, take your render into Photoshop first and assign it the sRGB profile...

Perry (Furniture_Guy)
« Last Edit: January 08, 2020, 11:40:33 am by Furniture_Guy »

Online Eugen Fetsch

Re: Management in Keyshot
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2020, 12:41:11 am »
Thanks, Perry.

How about applying OCIO profiles to the view inside KS?

Offline Furniture_Guy

Re: Management in Keyshot
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2020, 07:34:10 am »
Mr. Fetsch,

I'm sorry but I'm not familiar with OCIO profiles only icc ones on still images. Presumably they are LUT's (look up tables) that work the same way as icc ones. I suppose if they conform to the icc standard you could use one in place of the AdobeRGB used in the KeyShot QuickTip but without testing that I would be wary. Color Management is a deep and very complicated subject that most people don't want to fool with. Why not save yourself all the headaches and stick with the tried and true sRGB icc standard? Since KeyShot has standardized on sRGB (a simple and effective solution without opening a BIG can of worms for them), and I know that all output is also sRGB, I don't even enable color management in the KeyShot preferences. Have a high quality sRGB monitor (I use a dual BenQ SW2700PT setup with an X-Rite i1Profiler). As long as you know all this, it seems to me that it's a solution looking for a problem...

Just my two cents...

Perry (Furniture_Guy)

Online Eugen Fetsch

Re: Management in Keyshot
« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2020, 08:24:41 am »
OCIO is the easiest way to share a LUT between different programs and I would like to apply my LUTs to the viewport directly. It is much more convenient.
Sometimes I need two render engines to get the job done (Cycles / Eevee / KeyShot / Fusion). In this case I would like to import the OCIO file into the "Image Style" tab and view my image in the same way I would see it in Blender or Fusion/Nuke.

... and there are much more Color Spaces out there:
- Rec.709
- Rec.2020
- DCI-P3
- ...

It may be a complicated topic, but more and more artists have a demand for those kind of features.
IMO, options like OCIO, Cryptomatte, Multilayer EXR, "working" Multipass Compositing, etc. would make a KeyShot Pro a real PRO version. 

Offline Furniture_Guy

Re: Management in Keyshot
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2020, 12:56:15 pm »
So you're looking for color profiles to go with the all the different color spaces with OCIO?

-CIELAB
-HSV
-RGB
-CMYK

All the spaces you list are primarily for video so maybe that world is different but I believe even Adobe Premiere uses the Adobe Engine. And color management within Blender? To my knowledge none of these have something equal to the Adobe Color Engine that performs the conversion utilizing whatever profile is attached to the file. That's precisely why it works so well between all the Adobe Creative Cloud applications. I seriously doubt that what you're asking for will happen in my lifetime...

But then I'm old so maybe it will in yours.

Good Luck,

Perry (Furniture_Guy)

Offline KeyShot

Re: Management in Keyshot
« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2020, 03:48:55 pm »
In KeyShot you can apply an .icc profile in the preferences to get a calibrated output for your monitor.

We are looking into adding color profile information to the rendered images. For now it is fine as you suggested to assume sRGB and take it from there.

Are you looking to render images in other color spaces? Do you use textures or other inputs and if yes, which color space do you use for those?
 

Online Eugen Fetsch

Re: Management in Keyshot
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2020, 03:17:24 am »
It depends on the project. I've two reference monitors - one is set to Adobe RGB and one to Rec.709. Through the day I need to work on projects for print and for video. So I just drag and drop the application windows from one monitor to the other, instead of switching the color spaces in the monitor setup. But mostly it's more about colors and highlights appearance. 

Take this shot for example: https://youtu.be/byCqEfhjHlg
The car and the floor are rendered in KeyShot, the flares are done in After Effects, the background and final compositing is made in BMD Fusion. The data is shared in linear color space between the applications.

On the application site it's easier to apply a LUT and save it inside the project and not for the whole application. See examples attached.

One of the next projects is compositing driving CG trucks into a drone video footage. The client uses KeyShot for stills, so it is would be very convenient to use KS for CG. Will see how it goes here.   
« Last Edit: January 10, 2020, 03:21:23 am by Eugen Fetsch »

Offline Furniture_Guy

Re: Management in Keyshot
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2020, 06:17:04 am »
Old but still a very good explanation of all the intricacies of a color management system:

http://www.peachpit.com/articles/article.aspx?p=1315593&seqNum=2

I wish Bruce Fraser was still with us:

http://www.photoshophalloffame.com/bruce-fraser

http://www.brucefraserlegacy.com/

Again, good luck!

Perry (Furniture_Guy)


Online Eugen Fetsch

Re: Management in Keyshot
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2020, 06:57:11 am »
Thanks Perry.

The link from peachpit.com is 11 years old and is more related to PhotoShop, as I can see. 
The best (up to date) link I know about Color Management for Cinematography, is Chris Brejon - Color Management

But, this is not what I'm talking about. My topic is about viewport color management using OpenColorIO (for the example).

I don't know how many KS artists will need this feature, but I would assume that there are not many of them (at least at the moment).
« Last Edit: January 10, 2020, 07:28:14 am by Eugen Fetsch »

Offline Furniture_Guy

Re: Management in Keyshot
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2020, 12:30:37 pm »
Yes, I agree. If more artists (and you're a very good one) needed it, I believe it would be higher on KS's priority list...

Keep up the good work!

Perry (Furniture_Guy)