Author Topic: "Amazing Render"  (Read 582 times)

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Offline Don Cheke

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"Amazing Render"
« on: March 16, 2020, 03:46:17 pm »
I often wonder if those posting in this "Amazing Renders" topic are just proud of the render(s) they are posting and are simply looking to share what they have made. I have noticed that so many folks look at these renders and take it upon themselves to point out what they think is wrong with them or what they feel needs improving. I think that is a sure way to limit who posts here, after all, who wants to post something they are proud of only to hear that someone else thinks it sucks . So much is subjective in this regard anyway, so what value is there in that? Call me sensitive, but I find the atmosphere on this thread sometimes quite uninviting and I don't think it needs to be.

I think that viewers should refrain from anything but positive and encouraging remarks in this thread unless a user specifically asks for a critique. Alternately, administration could create a thread entitled, "Pleas Critique My Render". In this way, one knows what the poster is actively seeking.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2020, 06:04:00 pm by Don Cheke »

Offline Kico

Re: "Amazing Render"
« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2020, 05:44:19 pm »
I've always thought to myself "are your shots amazing ?!!" everytime I posted here !

Offline jhiker

Re: "Amazing Render"
« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2020, 01:32:00 am »
I have to disagree. I don't think I've ever seen criticism on here that hasn't been constructive in some way.
Sure, there are sometimes suggestions for improvement but isn't that worthwhile? It's certainly not an attempt to belittle or denigrate.
I find this one of the most friendly and welcoming forums that I've ever come across.

Offline designgestalt

Re: "Amazing Render"
« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2020, 04:03:04 am »
hello Don,
maybe you are still a bit "too young" in this forum to know and understand the history of this thread!
placing your work here was meant to open it for (constructive) critisism!

I earn my money with my creativity for my entire (work) life, which is close to forty years now and I trained design students for about twenty years! it is always a problem, that, and I feel that especially in the creative field, people take critisism very personally.
that is a pity, as if one feels so, one is not really open for input!
constant training is one way of getting better, but especially in our field "to have the eye for it" (I hope that translates right) is another very important, if not crucial point! and this is something everyone of us CG artist and Designers has to develop for themselves, but one way of doing that is because someone with "the eye" points it out to you!
often enough you are not seeing the forest for the trees and is good to have an objective opinion from another professional as we do not have the golden book of solutions in this art!
if you follow the forum for a few years, you will see that there are many people that developed unbelievable skills in a very short time, because they took the challenge, were open to the critisism and tried to improve their work following the suggestions given in the forum.
I understand that the "amazing" in "amazing renders" might push you off, but it should not be like this.
but I have never seen, that a beginner had an unconstructive feedback and even if (very seldom) people shoot over the edge, there are enough "guards" to calm them down! I have never seen, a comment like : "your work sucks!" You should not see your work like this, nor should you understand the comments that way!

Keyshot is only one of the packages I work with and I am in dozen forums and I would agree with jhiker, that this is BY FAR the most constructive, friendly and helpful forum I have ever seen. if you have a question or problem, you have a solution within a very short time!
some guys put an unbelievable amount of time into this and this should rather be honored. Guys like Will Gibbons, Liam Martin or Esben Oxholm put an unbelievable amount of effort into helping people mastering this software, without asking for anything ! this cannot be honored enough!
try to learn whatever NURBS modeling software you want as an example and try to find just a fraction of the support you get here for free...

maybe, and this is something I could fully understand, it has also to do with the way how things are worded sometimes and you as a native speaker of course have that deeper sense for the language. but most people here are spread all over the world and sometimes use Google translater to post their threads, it might be, and I would include myself, that some things come across harsher than intended.

So I would like to encourage you and everyone else rather than to discourage  you to post your work right here, if you are willing to improve your skills, it helped me a ton in the past and I still feel belly brushed (anotherone of the idioms I don´t know if it translates  ;)  ) if one of the godfathers of this forum found the time to evaluate my work ...

cheers
designgestalt
« Last Edit: March 17, 2020, 04:12:13 am by designgestalt »

Offline Don Cheke

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Re: "Amazing Render"
« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2020, 07:21:54 am »
hello Don,
maybe you are still a bit "too young" in this forum to know and understand the history of this thread!
placing your work here was meant to open it for (constructive) critisism!  .................

cheers
designgestalt

I understand what you are saying and agree with most of it. The thing is that long time users do know the history here while new users do not. Of course nobody comes right out and says that something sucks (poor choice of words on my part) but when someone posts with a list of what is wrong without even asking the original poster if they are open to it I find that offputting. I have seen when some posters asks for a critique and they get it, and as you say it usually looks accurate and is offered in a decent way. I just think it is important to ask and not assume a poster wants that critique.

I too have spent all my life using my creative skills to earn my living (I am now 60). Since 2002, I have also trained students in the use of CAD by producing comprehensive full project tutorials (on average 250 -450 page projects when I used PDF format and 8 hours+ now that I use video format). I have produced over 135 comprehensive tutorial projects since then and I have had nothing but positive feedback. I have also provided online training when requested. As such, I am not such a newbie when it comes to education, user forums and I do know how much time it takes (or how much time I have put in) to produce what I have done to aid the CAD community. As for help in general, it is good that folks, such as the ones you mention, offer that help as it certainly eases the learning curve for new users, but on the forum it should never be assumed that everyone is looking for criticism. Is it too hard to create a new thread specifically for constructive criticism?

Don Cheke
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« Last Edit: March 17, 2020, 07:27:11 am by Don Cheke »

Offline Eric Summers

Re: "Amazing Render"
« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2020, 07:24:41 am »
I think designgestalt and jhiker hit the nail on the head (to add another idiom to the discussion :D). The people on this forum are incredible and just want to help everyone improve their skills. I wish I could post my work to get comments and criticism because it is impossible to self critique. In the 3ish years I've been on here, I've rarely seen any criticism that is overly harsh or negative (that doesn't mean there isn't a bitter pill to swallow every once in a while). It is impressive the lengths some folks go to to help out.
I always learned that when giving criticism to point out things that could be improved andwhat was done well. That way someone can build on what others see as good and places they can improve. Because in the end, "looks great!" isn't helpful feedback (and yes, I'm guilty of leaving these every so often :-[). Work comes first, so it happens.

I've always thought of the Amazing Shots board as place to share work you are proud of and a way to get some feedback and support from some of the very best KeyShot users. We all have to start somewhere and it's difficult to improve without some help.

And sometimes a post goes without any replies. I've noticed that the forum "slows down" occasionally, so a lot of members are probably busy with their own work or there are so many new posts that things get missed.

Offline Zeltronic

Re: "Amazing Render"
« Reply #6 on: March 17, 2020, 07:44:36 am »
For my part I completely agree with designgestalt, eric and jhiker, I think that all the criticisms on this forum are made in an excellent spirit and in a way to not denigrate but to make progress (all these remarks taught me a lot,
much more besides that a simple "very nice" even if it's always nice to hear compliments) ;) ,
You can see that most of the time critics and advices are articulate especially around technical elements and not on purely artistic that is for sure very subjective thing.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2020, 07:53:31 am by Zeltronic »

Offline JimmyToTheBe

Re: "Amazing Render"
« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2020, 04:05:50 am »
To be fair this has been a great read. Not one to spoil the incredible debate on creative criticisms here but I think we should move this to the general discussion section.

Offline NM-92

Re: "Amazing Render"
« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2020, 12:20:04 pm »
hello Don,
maybe you are still a bit "too young" in this forum to know and understand the history of this thread!
placing your work here was meant to open it for (constructive) critisism!

I earn my money with my creativity for my entire (work) life, which is close to forty years now and I trained design students for about twenty years! it is always a problem, that, and I feel that especially in the creative field, people take critisism very personally.
that is a pity, as if one feels so, one is not really open for input!
constant training is one way of getting better, but especially in our field "to have the eye for it" (I hope that translates right) is another very important, if not crucial point! and this is something everyone of us CG artist and Designers has to develop for themselves, but one way of doing that is because someone with "the eye" points it out to you!
often enough you are not seeing the forest for the trees and is good to have an objective opinion from another professional as we do not have the golden book of solutions in this art!
if you follow the forum for a few years, you will see that there are many people that developed unbelievable skills in a very short time, because they took the challenge, were open to the critisism and tried to improve their work following the suggestions given in the forum.
I understand that the "amazing" in "amazing renders" might push you off, but it should not be like this.
but I have never seen, that a beginner had an unconstructive feedback and even if (very seldom) people shoot over the edge, there are enough "guards" to calm them down! I have never seen, a comment like : "your work sucks!" You should not see your work like this, nor should you understand the comments that way!

Keyshot is only one of the packages I work with and I am in dozen forums and I would agree with jhiker, that this is BY FAR the most constructive, friendly and helpful forum I have ever seen. if you have a question or problem, you have a solution within a very short time!
some guys put an unbelievable amount of time into this and this should rather be honored. Guys like Will Gibbons, Liam Martin or Esben Oxholm put an unbelievable amount of effort into helping people mastering this software, without asking for anything ! this cannot be honored enough!
try to learn whatever NURBS modeling software you want as an example and try to find just a fraction of the support you get here for free...

maybe, and this is something I could fully understand, it has also to do with the way how things are worded sometimes and you as a native speaker of course have that deeper sense for the language. but most people here are spread all over the world and sometimes use Google translater to post their threads, it might be, and I would include myself, that some things come across harsher than intended.

So I would like to encourage you and everyone else rather than to discourage  you to post your work right here, if you are willing to improve your skills, it helped me a ton in the past and I still feel belly brushed (anotherone of the idioms I don´t know if it translates  ;)  ) if one of the godfathers of this forum found the time to evaluate my work ...

cheers
designgestalt

Pretty much everything was said here by designgestalt, but i'll echo it with my story. I came here a few years ago (2015-2016) because i wanted to learn the software. I knew how to use it , but every image i saw here, in "amazing renders" blew my mind. I wanted to produce that. As an industrial design student, i was pretty obsessed with leveling up my rendering skills, and i got to a point that everyone in my environment told me "wow, awesome render". That changed when i got here. Without asking, the amazing level of feedback i received just blew my mind. I was one of the lucky ones to receive input by those same exact guys he names (Esben/Magnus/Will/etc.) and here i am now. Still learning, but with a level i could have never imagined in the past. You don't have to make every change someone suggests here in the forum to your images. I let a lot of critiques pass because i didn't have time to apply them or just because i didn't feel the need to. But this was what got me to learn everything i know to the date.

There are other places and social media to post without this happening, but this being a place where the whole community uses the same tool ? You'll get asked how you did something and also you will be offered alternatives to your workflow. Embrace the knowledge !