KeyShot and Color Management icm profiles?

[DriesV]

I just got myself a display calibration unit (X-Rite i1Display Pro) for my two LCD displays: HP LP2475w (wide gamut CCFL backlight) and Samsung SyncMaster 943SN (CCFL backlight).
My main display is the HP.

By using the i1Display Pro and the accompanying i1Profiler software I have calibrated and profiled both displays. I loaded the resulting icm profiles in Windows Color Management for both displays.
In i1Profiler I can do a quality measurement for the calibration and profiling. Both calibrated and profiled displays check out as 'PASSED'.

However, while running KeyShot, I notice that the colors shift significantly between both displays. Much more so than e.g. working in Photoshop.
The colors on the HP monitor appear much more saturated compared to the Samsung monitor.
When I take a screenshot inside KeyShot or do a final rendering, the difference between the two monitors is much smaller. On the HP monitor the image looks less saturated (more acurate) compared to the KeyShot realtime rendering window.
The colors of the rendered output (screenshot or final rendering) differ significantly from the KeyShot realtime window, no matter what monitor.

Does KeyShot actually consider the icm profiles that I set in Windows Color Management?
How does KeyShot handle color display?

Dries

[guest84672]

I would think not, but Henrik is the person to properly address this.

[DriesV]

Hi Thomas,
I hope Henrik spots this topic sooner or later.

I hope he can clarify too what color space KeyShot operates in for the realtime render window.

I just noticed that this issue was already mentionned on the forum in the past.
http://keyshot.com/forum/index.php?topic=1422.0
The topic starter was also using a wide gamut monitor. The problem description is nearly identical. I wonder if he ever got a solution to his problem...

Dries

[guest84672]

I'm pretty sure that we don't do anything specific with regards to monitors and color profiles.

[DriesV]

I just tried switching icm profiles for my HP monitor.
That doesn't seem to impact the appearance of colors in the KeyShot realtime window. It does make a difference in Photoshop.

This leads me to believe that KeyShot is not ICC-aware, just like Windows itself in most situations.
Is there a technical hidrance to implementing 'ICC awareness' for the realtime renderer?

It would really make accurate color matching much easier.

Anyone else out there using calibrated screens and custom icm profiles with KeyShot? What is your experience?...

Dries

[Robb63]

I am using a calibrated wide gamut screen, and am having the same issue as you.

As much as it drives me crazy, a bigger issue is that my clients are typically looking at the concepts I send them on business class laptops, that have never been calibrated, and are probably running on lower power battery mode, oh and in a conference room with sunlight streaming in!!

Do you have a plugin that can fix that?? 

Bur, seriously it would be nice if I knew when they left me the colors were right. Especially now that you have Dupont, RAL, etc...

[DriesV]

Agreed.
I recognize your story very well.
You're right that there is a limit to how far one should stretch the hunt for perfect colors, but the source material should be as accurate as possible, right? As you put it so poignantly, images get butchered in SO many ways...

Color profile awareness is an absolute must for working accurately in DTP software.
Now that KeyShot ventures into the realm of physically accurate paints and accurate color swatches (which is really great btw !) through partnering with other companies, KeyShot should be aware of system-wide display profiling in order to accurately display them.

Now that my screens are properly calibrated (which works brilliantly in Photoshop), I feel that my HP monitor (which is higher-end than the Samsung, with its IPS panel and wide gamut backlight) is actually performing worse than before.

Now, I feel like I have to check colors on my low-gamut, analog and tiny Samsung display to get the most accurate representation. That's a pity, because the HP is such a nice monitor!

So I propose a wish for future KeyShot releases:
Implementation of full color awareness based on system-wide display icm profiles (swatch display, color picker display, realtime renderer, textures...)

I think this is especially important because for me the primary benefit of KeyShot is that it is an interactive realtime renderer. Having to check color accuracy in Photoshop kind of negates that benefit...

Dries

[DriesV]

I found a few other 'open topics' about this issue on the forum.
I'll list them here for everyone's reference and also to make my case stronger.

For Photographers
http://keyshot.com/forum/index.php?topic=56.0
Wide gamut monitors and colorspace issues
http://keyshot.com/forum/index.php/topic,4261.msg18049.html#msg18049

Dries

[KeyShot]

We will put this on our todo list. I agree it would be good to have.

[DriesV]

Good to hear that too!

For your information: a very nice article about color management in CG.
http://www.artstorm.net/journal/2009/07/color-management-wide-gamut-dell-2408/

Dries

[DriesV]

@Luxion and/or KeyShot color gurus :

Can you share a scene and resulting rendered image (raw rendering and one with embedded ICC profile, e.g. in 8-bit 'Adobe RGB' color space) that you know is color accurate?

I'd like to experiment with settings in KeyShot and/or Photoshop to get the colors of my images to be as accurate as possible. Having a KeyShot scene and rendering as a reference, should help me get there.
I have fully calibrated and profiled my displays, so a good image in the right color space should display very accurately in Photoshop.

Dries

[DriesV]

Okay,

I've been experimenting a bit further...
1) I created a new 8 bit RGB PSD document, with color profile Adobe RGB (1998). I then chose 'PANTONE 389 C' from the Photoshop color library and filled a blank layer with that swatch.

2) I then opened the KeyShot 4 material ball scene, applied a plain paint to the ball and cranked brightness up a bit. I then applied 'PANTONE 389 C' from the KeyShot color library to the paint. I rendered the ball in PNG.

3) I then opened the rendering in Photoshop and assigned my HP monitor icm profile (generated after calibration) to it. Next step was Edit > 'Convert to Profile...' and I picked Adobe RGB (1998) as the destination color space.
note: I have Photoshop's color settings configured so that PS prompts a 'Missing profile' dialog when opening images that have no embedded ICC profile (like KeyShot renderings).

4) I also imported a copy of the rendering and immediately assigned the Adobe RGB profile upon import.

5) Finally in Photoshop I dragged the KeyShot balls from step 3) & 4) into the canvas from step 1) and aligned the KeyShot balls.

6) By toggling the visibility of the KeyShot balls I can visually check how accurately their colors match the PANTONE 389 C fill color of the background.

It strikes me that the KeyShot ball from step 3) matches the background significantly better than the one I created in step 4). That last one has a slight yellow shade.

So I think that for accurate colors in your KeyShot renderings -for the time being- it is best to assign your (calibrated!) monitor profile to the image upon import and then convert the color profile to whatever color space is required for the intended use of the image (e.g. Adobe RGB if a higher gamut than sRGB is required). This applies when you are using Photoshop in conjunction with KeyShot.

Dries