Author Topic: GPU for 3D Rendering  (Read 671 times)

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Offline Cryptus

GPU for 3D Rendering
« on: July 28, 2020, 06:44:38 am »
I already have a PC. (Newly built)

CPU:- AMD Ryzen 5 3600 3.6 GHz 6-Core Processor

GPU:- MSI Radeon RX 5700 8 GB MECH OC Video Card

M.BOARD:- MSI B450 TOMAHAWK MAX ATX AM4 Motherboard

RAM:- G.Skill F4-3200C16D-16GTZRX Desktop Ram Trident Z RGB Series 16GB (8GBx2) DDR4 DRAM 3200MHz (For AMD)

HARD DISK:- Western Digital Blue 1TB 7200 RPM Desktop Hard Drive (WD10EZEX)

SSD:- Adata XPG Gammix S11 Pro 256GB 3D NAND M.2 NVMe Internal SSD (AGAMMIXS11P-256GT-C)

So, i am a Design engineer i use CATIA, SOLIDWORKS, SOLIDWORKS VISUALIZE, NX. i am learning KEYSHOT now to render but the gpu is supported by keyshot is Nvidia. so the rendering is very slow basically its all running on CPU. so, is there any solution for this ? i can purchase a new card under 40k INR. can i use nvidia gpu as external along side with amd as main gpu? What can you suggest here?



NOTE:- i have attached a recent render picture. it took me 16 hrs to render with (3000 samples , all the render checkmarks) and still you can see the noise.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2020, 06:52:21 am by Cryptus »

Online DriesV

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Re: GPU for 3D Rendering
« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2020, 08:21:39 am »
Hi,

Welcome to the forum!

With a budget of 40k INR, an RTX 2060 Super graphics card would be a great option for GPU rendering in KeyShot. It has nearly the same performance as RTX 2070, but is significantly cheaper. Make sure to pick the Super version, which is faster and has more memory (8 GB) than the older model (6 GB).

Mixing AMD and NVIDIA cards, even when the NVIDIA card is external, is entirely untested by Luxion and thus not recommended. I am not even sure installing and mixing AMD and NVIDIA drivers on the same machine is possible.

Dries
« Last Edit: July 28, 2020, 08:24:41 am by DriesV »

Offline Cryptus

Re: GPU for 3D Rendering
« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2020, 10:55:05 am »
so what do you suggest that i do? i bought this card for its price to performance ration but now i am feeling regret.

Online DriesV

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Re: GPU for 3D Rendering
« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2020, 11:20:50 am »
In hindsight, it should be possible to install both an AMD and NVIDIA card in one machine. You could run the NVIDIA GPU in an external enclosure, at additional cost of course.
Keep in mind that you won't be able to leverage the AMD card for raytracing in KeyShot.

Dries

Online DriesV

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Re: GPU for 3D Rendering
« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2020, 11:31:15 am »
It's not a bad idea to run dual GPUs, even when only a single NVIDIA card is used for GPU rendering in KeyShot.
You could use the AMD card purely for display. The NVIDIA card doesn't need to have a monitor connected to it.
The benefit of such setup is that the NVIDIA card can be dedicated to GPU rendering (or other CUDA apps). Your system will feel more responsive under load on the NVIDIA GPU and there will be significantly more memory available on the card, as it isn't driving a monitor or rendering the OpenGL of your CAD apps and KeyShot.

Dries

Offline Cryptus

Re: GPU for 3D Rendering
« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2020, 09:33:05 pm »
Yes this is what i was talking about. so, how i can do it in single m/c?

Online designgestalt

Re: GPU for 3D Rendering
« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2020, 02:54:43 am »
but coming back on the rendering you provided :

this will not be solved with a faster system !

if something isn´t cured after 3000 samples (which is an insane amount !), it simply will not cure ...!
than it has to do with the setup (i.e. what material in combination with what lighting etc...)

there is only the possibilty to change the setup (some lights cause fireflies (with some certain materials), while other will not i.e.)
or to do some post processing i.e. a noise reduction in Photoshop!

besides, (and I do not want to start a war of faith here, don´t get me wrong!), GPU rendering in Keyshot has not not yet convinced me, and I am working on a 20k machine with a fairly grunty RTX card...
I don´t know much about AMD Ryzen processors, but if you are considering upgrading, maybe it is also an option to spent the money on a gruntier processor.

not talking against anything, that Dries suggested, it just sounds a bit complicated when reading through this...

cheers
designgestalt

Offline Furniture_Guy

Re: GPU for 3D Rendering
« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2020, 06:56:20 am »

besides, (and I do not want to start a war of faith here, don´t get me wrong!), GPU rendering in Keyshot has not not yet convinced me, and I am working on a 20k machine with a fairly grunty RTX card...
I don´t know much about AMD Ryzen processors, but if you are considering upgrading, maybe it is also an option to spent the money on a gruntier processor.

not talking against anything, that Dries suggested, it just sounds a bit complicated when reading through this...

cheers
designgestalt

I agree with designgestalt, you're running a 6 core machine. I too have not yet embraced GPU rendering. I think that would be a good place to start. Even needing a new motherboard (maybe AMD Threadripper 2990WX) seems to me the way to go...

Perry (Furniture_Guy)

Offline Cryptus

Re: GPU for 3D Rendering
« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2020, 10:00:06 pm »
but coming back on the rendering you provided :

this will not be solved with a faster system !

if something isn´t cured after 3000 samples (which is an insane amount !), it simply will not cure ...!
than it has to do with the setup (i.e. what material in combination with what lighting etc...)


there is only the possibilty to change the setup (some lights cause fireflies (with some certain materials), while other will not i.e.)
or to do some post processing i.e. a noise reduction in Photoshop!

besides, (and I do not want to start a war of faith here, don´t get me wrong!), GPU rendering in Keyshot has not not yet convinced me, and I am working on a 20k machine with a fairly grunty RTX card...
I don´t know much about AMD Ryzen processors, but if you are considering upgrading, maybe it is also an option to spent the money on a gruntier processor.

not talking against anything, that Dries suggested, it just sounds a bit complicated when reading through this...

cheers
designgestalt




Yes you are absolutely right if something is not cured with 3000 sample & 2000 DPI it isn't curable. and the thing i realize now that i have to stick to CPU rendering as of now. but thank you for your suggestion.

much appreciated.

Offline Cryptus

Re: GPU for 3D Rendering
« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2020, 10:03:30 pm »

besides, (and I do not want to start a war of faith here, don´t get me wrong!), GPU rendering in Keyshot has not not yet convinced me, and I am working on a 20k machine with a fairly grunty RTX card...
I don´t know much about AMD Ryzen processors, but if you are considering upgrading, maybe it is also an option to spent the money on a gruntier processor.

not talking against anything, that Dries suggested, it just sounds a bit complicated when reading through this...

cheers
designgestalt

I agree with designgestalt, you're running a 6 core machine. I too have not yet embraced GPU rendering. I think that would be a good place to start. Even needing a new motherboard (maybe AMD Threadripper 2990WX) seems to me the way to go...

Perry (Furniture_Guy)




Yeah AMD threadripper sure maybe in near future. but as of now i have to stick with 6 core. no other choice here.

Offline andy.engelkemier

Re: GPU for 3D Rendering
« Reply #10 on: July 30, 2020, 09:07:17 am »
There is noise, and there are fireflies. What you've got there are fireflies. And yes, those don't resolve. Your scene isn't ideal for keyshot. I can tell just by looking.
You've got 2 lights? One is casting the window projection, and the other is a physical light visible to camera?
Right off the bat, keyshot is going to be wasting a TON of time calculating GI on the outside of your box, assuming you've got light from an hdri. In other software you can use a lighting portal to help focus those calculations. Keyshot doesn't have that yet. So there's problem #1.
And with any brute force GI method, small bright lights cause fireflies. Well, that's your interior light, which is also going through a shade? So THAT is where you cheat. There is No reason to actually calculate all of that.

Looking at that scene, if you just set it up differently, should completely resolve in about 5 minutes these days. But in keyshot, you'll have to render that in passes because of the interior light. But you could throw that in something like Eevee and it would be indistinguishable which one was which.
Just be sure you're spending time rendering the right thing. That's one of the hardest part of 3d renderings, most notibly difficult in keyshot. What is causing the slowdown? You just have to add one thing at a time to find out. Then think, "can I accomplish the same look in a different way?"

And if you want to do 3d rendering, stay away from AMD graphics. Sorry. Too many things make use of CUDA.

Offline Cryptus

Re: GPU for 3D Rendering
« Reply #11 on: July 31, 2020, 12:24:06 am »
Appreciate your thought but after i turned off the lamp light fireflies or noise are still there. and about AMD yeah i get that now. good GPU for gaming but not for rendering.


This was the First time i used keyshot otherwise i use visualize. but in visualize not so many options its basic render tool. that's why i didn't knew much about noise or fireflies and still i don't know much. i am learning.

Offline andy.engelkemier

Re: GPU for 3D Rendering
« Reply #12 on: August 04, 2020, 07:08:25 am »
Did you try the same scene in visualize (aka bunkspeed)? I would be pretty surprised if it didn't have fireflies as well. Also, it's great to learn that the lamp light wasn't the cause. What is the other light? Is it a physical light? Is it an actual wall with holes in it with HDRI coming through? Do you have a ceiling?

I personally wouldn't use keyshot for interior renders, but plenty of people do. And that's just today. They may change something in a next version that makes it more usable. For interiors I prefer an engine that you can cheat more easily. Like...windows shouldn't cast shadow. It's a flat plane. It should catch some reflection, and that's about it. But in keyshot, you can't currently turn off GI and Shadows in GPU mode. Just one of many examples. And real-time engines have been so good lately, that unless you have features like really fuzzy things in your scene, you're just spending extra time rendering something that no one will notice because your floor trim has no seams and is too perfect so it's a dead giveaway that it's a render anyway. Not Yours, just an example. I know you're just using that scene as a test or something for keyshot, and you aren't using trim yet.

Anyway, certain things will give you fireflies in any software. They are caused by....well, math. You can fix them with denoise, but currently the solution for keyshot's denoise is rather destructive, and with a lack of controls, so it's only good in some instances. The basic idea of fireflies though is one pixel is sampled, and if it's a little glossy and happens to peak straight at the light in it's random value, it may give a value of something like 900 out of 1.0. So you keep averaging 900 with new values it samples. How many samples will it take before it gets a value of less than 1? And if that pixel ends up looking at the light again at some point? Yeah, that particular pixel is just never realistically going to get lower than 1. That's why really small bright lights cause more fireflies than larger lights. With an area light you need less light per pixel to light your scene. So instead of 900, that pixel might be more like 2.5, which will quickly get averaged below 1, and nearby pixels are also more likely to hit the same light multiple times so you get a smoother outcome. If it's just one bright spot out there, then there's a low probability a glossy material will hit that bright spot. An HDRI going through a window is similar, but for different reasons. That's why I mentioned lighting portals. Since keyshot doesn't have that, I would be inclined to light your scene with a completely black HDRI. Since your window isn't visible, you can just use multiple lights, or a single light projector to look like a window. So yeah, you can still cheat in keyshot. But there's just no reason to cast shadow of an object you can't see. That's where you use a projector instead. And if it's just a bunch of squares. You'd use a projector if it's something like light going through tree leaves. Instead of modeling a tree with a ton of leaves off screen, you just project the light that would pass through that and cast it in the room. They do that in real life as well, in the movies. They don't ship in a tree on an indoor set just to cast some light through. They just project the light through shapes to get the shadows they want.

Offline PerFotoVDB

Re: GPU for 3D Rendering
« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2020, 01:25:11 am »
Hi,

Completely correct. Keyshot for realistic interior renderings in an acceptable amount of time is really a no go.
As mentioned, the fireflies and noise are horrible, the denoise function is unsatisfactory, to say the least,...

GPU is also something I don't believe in, at least not in Keyshot, too many bugs and shortcomings when you look at the forum topics.

Where are running on an AMD 2990wx and that's a dream to work on :)

Don't want to be Keyshot bashing here, the software is great, especially workflow wise+geometry convert import/export (aside from ABC and FBX anim) but has many other issues to resolve. (I won't put my list here).

Cheers
Per

Offline KeyShot

Re: GPU for 3D Rendering
« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2020, 10:17:22 am »
For interior renderings you should use interior mode. It has been optimized for interiors and has been used with great success by many of our users. Product mode has been optimized for exterior viewing of products and it is extremely fast for this purpose. This is why we added interior mode. Interior mode has special 3d denoising and handles fireflies as well - however these special features are still CPU only.

In KeyShot 10 we will have a firefly denoiser in addition to the regular denoiser. It will work with all rendering modes. If you are interested in trying it please let us know. The beta will be available in a few days.