Author Topic: New Subscription based KS11 pricing?  (Read 7944 times)

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Offline richardfunnell

Re: New Subscription based KS11 pricing?
« Reply #30 on: February 25, 2022, 08:45:33 am »
@hve

That's a really interesting point. Up to now, I've been interested in this discussion, but didn't want to chime in since I've felt stuck in my current situation (using KeyShot for client work, while also training teams in KeyShot). Given my history using the tool, I've been somewhat resigned to "whelp, I'm stuck with it now." My main frustration has been very slow development on core features, and a very cavalier attitude towards acknowledging & fixing bugs in a timely fashion. I don't want to open a complain-a-thon, just adding context for my position. KeyShot is a tool I both know extremely well and also have major issues with when using.

Putting the cost of Maxon One vs KeyShot is a really eye-opening comparison for me, since I have been used to paying maintenance to keep up-to-date in KeyShot. Now, directly compared to other subscription options, that's a tougher pill to swallow. I pay for other subscriptions (Adobe) that offer a wide number of tools, sign up for 3 year commitments for Fusion 360 since they offer updates monthly, and I regularly donate to the Blender foundation because their development work should be compensated for. On top of that, I pay for tutorials and plugins for all of those platforms. It's not about being cheap, it's about getting something in return for your money.

I definitely don't want to switch render engines, but the ROI for learning a new tool becomes like an inevitable option if the cost/benefit is considered, especially in my case where I'm not tied to a corporate workflow or specific set of 3D tools.

A lot of previous KeyShot evangelists and power users simply aren't here to add to this discussion because they've moved on to other tools. I think the increased cost may be the last nail in the coffin for a lot of independent KeyShot users.

Offline mattjgerard

Re: New Subscription based KS11 pricing?
« Reply #31 on: February 25, 2022, 10:44:17 am »
Richard makes the main distinction of users here, corp users (myself) and indies. The indies are the ones that will be mostly concerned with this whole situation. I told my IT about the coming changes, and he said " I just dropped $300k on software licenses for our storage and network. I am trying not to laugh at you."

So, for someone who pays their own way, yeah this will be an issue. I have been there, and consolidating costs is a huge deal. Being a long time Cinema 4D user, former octane use and redshift dabbler, that sort of solution really start to looks attractive. Especially when you consider what you are getting for the price.

Now, that being said, KS is by FAR the easiest to use and get fast great results. For my workflow, that's what I need. Its more about getting my products to 80% perfect super fast, then if the project allows, I can use more time to get it closer to perfect.

I do know that Luxion does listen to its users, morso than Maxon does :) So there is that.

Offline richardfunnell

Re: New Subscription based KS11 pricing?
« Reply #32 on: February 25, 2022, 11:03:51 am »
Ha, that’s pretty funny. I had a similar experience at a previous employer who was creating the software budget for the next fiscal year. When he came to ask about my KS enterprise license costs, he basically shrugged them off as a rounding error compared to everything else within our group. Bigger companies will definitely not blink at a change like this, and it may simplify the licensing process to batch them all.

I also agree that KeyShot is the absolute clear winner for most corporate CAD users, and casual users who want to get great results quickly. I simply feel that, as someone who pays for licenses through my own income, there will be fewer reasons to pay for upgrades in the future. Will I ever quit KeyShot cold turkey? Probably not. But I may not be willing to pay for new versions after KS11 without some convincing.

Matt, you’re absolutely right that Luxion has historically been good about listening to customers. Hell, one of my favorite things while working for Luxion was to bring lists of ideas & requests to the dev team in Aarhus. Unfortunately, I can’t help but feel deflated that this most recent release didn’t even come close to addressing issues that have been raised over the past few years. I’d love to have my pessimism proven wrong in the 11.xx releases.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2022, 11:06:19 am by richardfunnell »

Offline hve

Re: New Subscription based KS11 pricing?
« Reply #33 on: February 25, 2022, 11:27:40 am »
That's interesting Richard and Matt,

I also use Fusion 360 in combo with Keyshot and a few other software packages like Adobe Cloud, Blender etc and for now KS is still the best and fastest to use for me. There are indeed bugs you need to work around but it's extremely easy to get nice results. I really hope they can make the subscription a little more affordable in the future especially for us freelance artists. Have a great eve, Hans

Offline Penteon

Re: New Subscription based KS11 pricing?
« Reply #34 on: February 28, 2022, 07:28:24 pm »
I may not make as much time to post here as I used to, but I will take a moment to chime in.

I share many of Matt's speculations. Though, I'd suspect the active users on this forum are less than 0.5% of active KeyShot users. That number falls even further when considering who's using legitimate licenses.

You know the saying, "What got you here, won't get you there?" Well, when a business takes actions to grow, they often focus on making the simplest changes that will result in the greatest results. Switching to a subscription-based model fights piracy, and creates more predictable cashflow and automates sales and license management to a degree for Luxion.

To me, the biggest potential upside to moving to a subscription model is that Luxion doesn't need to decide on what glossy features they'll put into a release each year in an effort to gain new customers. If they truly move to ongoing releases and do away with the major releases (i.e. KS11, KS12, KS13 and just the name of the year such as KS22.1, KS22.2, KS22.3) then when a feature is added becomes irrelevant. What's important is customer retention and customer satisfaction.

The risk of adding glossy features for a big annual release is rushing something and releasing it in a half-baked manner, then not continuing to develop it because users don't use it because it never worked well in the first place. Then you get a graveyard of abandoned features.

My optimism says an annual subscription gives Luxion the opportunity to grow their team of developers and other roles to allow them to focus on stability, continual improvement and hopefully more competitive features relative to the CGI landscape.

I think if you're concerned about the price, then you're in the wrong field. CGI is expensive. 3D is expensive. The hardware it takes to run this software well is expensive. Servers and render farms are expensive. Software is expensive. Engineering, production, prototyping, shipping, delivering products are all expensive endeavors.

KeyShot may seem expensive compared to some other software tools, but my electricity bill is about $165/mo ($1980/yr) for a small 3 bedroom house with low to moderate energy consumption. That's more expensive than the $1188/yr KeyShot will cost. If you're a hobbyist, sure, KeyShot may feel expensive. But anyone who uses the tool for his or her business, it's a drop in the bucket.

Anyone who's upset about the move to subscription or the price increase, I think is losing sight of the big picture. I do think there's more to be gained as a user from this move, although it may take a few years for us to feel that as Luxion adapts to this change as well.

And for those who threaten to move to another platform, that's fine too. However, I think you'll quickly find it a bit tedious at best to use another render engine with CAD data. KeyShot's ease-of-use and quick workflow from HDRI editor to studios, to working well with lots of CAD applications is not something many other tools excel at.

As Matt pointed out, hobbyists, freelancers and individuals probably don't have a big impact on Luxion's bottom line.

I've no intentions to criticize anyone here who might feel offended or singled out by this post. I just wanted to share what I think personally stands to be gained by moving to a subscription model.

As for the direction the software moves in, who it's marketed to and what features are implemented and how, that's an entirely different conversation.

Understand that those who post regularly here and often with solutions to questions are the 1%. And those users in the 1% (most competent) are going to want features and tools that the 99% of users aren't aware of or interested in. Unfortunately, a business that's trying to grow, does not focus on the 1%. They focus on the 99%. And I say this as a business owner myself. Again, no harsh feelings toward Luxion. It's just a fact that some of us have to accept. The largest user base is who will be listened to the most for better or worse.

So let me summarize. If you're poor or are having trouble making ends meet, you don't belong in 3d.  You're insignificant, only corporate accounts matter.  Make more money peasant. This may suck for you, but it'll be awesome for those of us who can afford it. Decent tl;dr?
« Last Edit: February 28, 2022, 07:38:39 pm by Penteon »

Offline Penteon

Re: New Subscription based KS11 pricing?
« Reply #35 on: February 28, 2022, 07:33:57 pm »
But that's changing a product into a service. What happens if I stop the subscription?
This means you own my right to open the Scenes I made, forever....

There's something completely broken about the subscription-only based software.
What happens if Luxion decides to develop further towards animation? or clothing? or VR? All things I don't use.
Why do I need to be forced to finance a development team doing that when it has no value to me?

Valid points. Problem is, instead of pushing back when Adobe started all this subscription based nonsense nine years ago, people just bent over and took it. Once Adobe proved the model worked (that the suckers would keep paying and paying indefinitely, thus, "renting" the software forever), all other developers realized they could do it too. No going back now.

Considering the vast array of programs you get with Adobe suite, I think their prices are extremely reasonable.

Offline TGS808

Re: New Subscription based KS11 pricing?
« Reply #36 on: February 28, 2022, 08:49:45 pm »
Considering the vast array of programs you get with Adobe suite, I think their prices are extremely reasonable.

That’s exactly what Adobe wants you to believe.

Offline Penteon

Re: New Subscription based KS11 pricing?
« Reply #37 on: February 28, 2022, 09:32:01 pm »
Considering the vast array of programs you get with Adobe suite, I think their prices are extremely reasonable.

That’s exactly what Adobe wants you to believe.

What steps would one take to determine whether my belief is true or false?

Offline mattjgerard

Re: New Subscription based KS11 pricing?
« Reply #38 on: March 01, 2022, 05:48:01 am »

So let me summarize. If you're poor or are having trouble making ends meet, you don't belong in 3d.  You're insignificant, only corporate accounts matter.  Make more money peasant. This may suck for you, but it'll be awesome for those of us who can afford it. Decent tl;dr?

If I'm poor (which I have been) and having trouble making ends meet (which I have done) I'm not going to attempt to be a Porsche mechanic either. I'm going to work on cars I can afford the tools for.

When I first went freelance, I had $0. I took out my loan for a crap computer so that I could afford software. I used the built in renderers for C4D until I worked enough to afford Octane and a GPU card. I built my way up. So, cruelly, yes. If you can't afford the cost of doing business, you shouldn't be trying to be in the business.

That super mean thing being realized as "reality sucks sometimes" is followed up with this-

Blender.

100% all inclusive 3d Package. For Free. With Free Support. With Free Tutorials. There are even free render farms to use if you are a student. If you are struggling, guys are always offering their vast systems for rendering. Everything you need to be a successful 3D artist is there. FOR FREE.

Problem is that the UI sucks. And its a steep learning curve. But I can't think of any other industry that supports its userbase better than 3D. Fer crying out loud, Unity, one of the top gaming engines in the world with some of the most advanced real time rendering tech is (guess what)

FREE!!!!!

My kid downloaded it for fun and made a VR game for his Oculus. So, it can be done. I'm a shadetree mechanic. I love wrenching on stuff. If its got a motor, let me have it. But, I have Harbor Freight tools, not SnapOn or Mac. I buy tools at garage sales. On Clearance. I use what I can afford. Now, if I for some reason started to make a living off it, you bet I would upgrade those tools when I could afford to. But no one is going to hand them to me for nothing. Not like the 3D industry does.

So, stop looking at the lack of tools as the limitation. If you can't afford KS, that's great! There is a path for you out there, focus on the path and refining your talents and knowledge, in the end that's what makes the difference. The software is just a tool to get the end result.

Offline RRIS

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Re: New Subscription based KS11 pricing?
« Reply #39 on: March 01, 2022, 07:04:52 am »

So let me summarize. If you're poor or are having trouble making ends meet, you don't belong in 3d.  You're insignificant, only corporate accounts matter.  Make more money peasant. This may suck for you, but it'll be awesome for those of us who can afford it. Decent tl;dr?

If I'm poor (which I have been) and having trouble making ends meet (which I have done) I'm not going to attempt to be a Porsche mechanic either. I'm going to work on cars I can afford the tools for.

When I first went freelance, I had $0. I took out my loan for a crap computer so that I could afford software. I used the built in renderers for C4D until I worked enough to afford Octane and a GPU card. I built my way up. So, cruelly, yes. If you can't afford the cost of doing business, you shouldn't be trying to be in the business.

That super mean thing being realized as "reality sucks sometimes" is followed up with this-

Blender.

100% all inclusive 3d Package. For Free. With Free Support. With Free Tutorials. There are even free render farms to use if you are a student. If you are struggling, guys are always offering their vast systems for rendering. Everything you need to be a successful 3D artist is there. FOR FREE.

Problem is that the UI sucks. And its a steep learning curve. But I can't think of any other industry that supports its userbase better than 3D. Fer crying out loud, Unity, one of the top gaming engines in the world with some of the most advanced real time rendering tech is (guess what)

FREE!!!!!

My kid downloaded it for fun and made a VR game for his Oculus. So, it can be done. I'm a shadetree mechanic. I love wrenching on stuff. If its got a motor, let me have it. But, I have Harbor Freight tools, not SnapOn or Mac. I buy tools at garage sales. On Clearance. I use what I can afford. Now, if I for some reason started to make a living off it, you bet I would upgrade those tools when I could afford to. But no one is going to hand them to me for nothing. Not like the 3D industry does.

So, stop looking at the lack of tools as the limitation. If you can't afford KS, that's great! There is a path for you out there, focus on the path and refining your talents and knowledge, in the end that's what makes the difference. The software is just a tool to get the end result.

I admire your patience...  :-X

Offline TGS808

Re: New Subscription based KS11 pricing?
« Reply #40 on: March 01, 2022, 07:55:06 am »
What steps would one take to determine whether my belief is true or false?

It has nothing to do with being true or false. You said you think Adobe's pricing is "extremely reasonable". That is exactly what Adobe wants you to think. You've bought into it.

Offline RRIS

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Re: New Subscription based KS11 pricing?
« Reply #41 on: March 01, 2022, 08:31:43 am »
...
Problem is that the UI sucks. And its a steep learning curve.
...

Both of these points are really not the case anymore since 2.8. I stepped in at that moment and did some basic tutorials, was surprised at how well thought out most of the UI was. In comparison to packages like 3DS MAX or Maya, I think things are done quite well. Definitely well enough to consider picking it up and giving it a go if paid software isn't an option.

Offline mattjgerard

Re: New Subscription based KS11 pricing?
« Reply #42 on: March 02, 2022, 06:20:51 am »

I admire your patience...  :-X

Its not really patience, its dealing with what I had to work with. Had to learn patience if I wanted to feed my family.

And to be honest, I haven't tried blender in years, so it would probably do me good to download it again and give it a go. I know if I ever stopped working corporate marketing and went on my own again, it would be the first software I would download. I have lived in Cinema 4d's environment for over 10 years now, but no Id be able to afford it if I was on my own. 

In the end, if you can't afford KS, then there are options out there that are cheaper. some free, some not. Luxion made a decision with this new model, and we as consumers get to decide to live with it or move on. Honestly for the Adobe stuff, everything I need photoshop for I could get done with GIMP or Pixelmator, or Photoshop 5, the version I first started on in 1999. I don't need Creative Cloud, and if I was on my own I certainly would not be paying for CC monthly.

Offline Will Gibbons

Re: New Subscription based KS11 pricing?
« Reply #43 on: March 02, 2022, 08:49:03 am »

I admire your patience...  :-X

Its not really patience, its dealing with what I had to work with. Had to learn patience if I wanted to feed my family.

And to be honest, I haven't tried blender in years, so it would probably do me good to download it again and give it a go. I know if I ever stopped working corporate marketing and went on my own again, it would be the first software I would download. I have lived in Cinema 4d's environment for over 10 years now, but no Id be able to afford it if I was on my own. 

In the end, if you can't afford KS, then there are options out there that are cheaper. some free, some not. Luxion made a decision with this new model, and we as consumers get to decide to live with it or move on. Honestly for the Adobe stuff, everything I need photoshop for I could get done with GIMP or Pixelmator, or Photoshop 5, the version I first started on in 1999. I don't need Creative Cloud, and if I was on my own I certainly would not be paying for CC monthly.

I could be wrong, but I think 'patience' was referring to you taking the time to reply to Penteon's post, haha. I've nothing to add. What you said is a sentiment I share. I've also been there.

Offline TGS808

Re: New Subscription based KS11 pricing?
« Reply #44 on: March 02, 2022, 09:59:05 am »
I could be wrong, but I think 'patience' was referring to you taking the time to reply to Penteon's post, haha.

You're not wrong. That's exactly what RRIS meant.